Ep 60 On-Again Off-Again Swingers, Sex on the Fringe

A couple who became very close to a yoda couple find themselves "single again" and a bit loss after their couple split up, but are getting back into the swing of things.  She prefers not just same-room sex but a more constant connection with her husband even when they have sex with others. Shane and Erin help define sex terms like the difference between a hotwife and a vixen and other nuances in the lifestyle.  Our special thanks to them for the use of their glossary.
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EP 60 - On Again Off Again Swingers, Sex on the Fringe
Transcription:

(Sizzle Reel)
Guest 0:04
It would be totally not allowed for me to get a blowjob from a girl, all the way across the room from her, because it's not the action of oral sex versus penetrative sex. That's the problem.
Guest 0:16
I'm very comfortable, just watching, if she wants me to just sit back, even like fully clothed in a corner and watch. It can take a lot out of us like a lot of energy, a lot of planning, and then if it doesn't go great, it's kind of a disincentive to keep working that hard for it. Having a Yoda couple to teach you things we the first time we went to one of our local clubs, it was with them because they knew everyone there. We ended up becoming really good friends with them and hanging out with them a lot.
Leyna 0:48
Why did it end I mean so if they broke up, was it not an option to remain in some sort of relationship with one of them or both of them separately
Guest 0:55
by saying we're stag and Vixen, I'm saying that I'm not a cold, I'm not being dominated, and even if there was a gangbang going on, I'm in charge of that situation.
Leyna 1:02
so let's get to it.
 
(Podcast Show Open)

Leyna 1:40
We've got a story today on the, on again, off again swingers sex on the fringe. But first, a special shout out to Doug and Patty, the real BDSM couple from Episode 57, not only for being amazing guests, I've gotten so much feedback on that episode, but also for showing their support for consenting adults, they are now, cherry on top members, and you can be to by going to buy me a coffee.com slash Leyna when and you'll find out all the extra things that our members get just for showing us a little love things like the Friday confessions, real stories from real people. And these confessing adults are sending in real pictures. We also have aging, health and lifestyle related articles as well as other fun things so go to buy me a coffee, calm slash Leyna when and show us some love. 

Leyna 2:35
My guest today are Shane and Erin, both are 41 Hey, welcome to the top of the hill your guys. He is a writer and proofreader. And she's in higher education so they're all about words. They met in freshman year of high school started dating and senior year, and they're still together. Okay you guys, let's talk about this, you said that you dabbled a little bit into the lifestyle, when you were in college now did you recognize back then that it was lifestyle. Not at all.

Guest 3:10
It was a felt more like the typical just college experimentation. Our first time was with another couple that we had been friends with since high school. The female the couple had been a friend of ours since high school and she started dating this guy in college, and we ended up playing a drinking game that ended up getting us all fairly drunk, each couple have just started making out and roping and the other guy in the couple kind of like, looked up looked over was like hey, how about we take this upstairs to a bedroom, and we did

Leyna 3:45
that kind of sounds like I mean I think a lot of young people do that. Right. Was it like same room sex that you're talking about. Yeah,

Guest 3:53
yeah it was same sex I don't think that any of us would have known, like the vocabulary to use or the word lifestyle to call it anything in particular, it just, 
Leyna: it was college, young people doing young crazy people things right, right, did it continue though?
Guest: it was pretty few and far between, I would say,

Guest 4:10 
I think what really tipped us off that there was something there though, for us was the whole next week, we just were having tons of sex, we definitely knew that we had had a, had an experience that had given our, you know libidos of boost.

Leyna 4:26
Okay, so it was exciting. Did you have conversations about why it turns you on.

Guest 4:30
What turned us on was like the environment of having the sex going on around us, and also some girl girl play. So we talked a lot about that about the girl girl play and how much I enjoyed it and he enjoys watching it. 
Leyna: Are you bisexual Erin?
Guest:  I guess bi-comfortable to be the right term in the right situation I'm very interested in playing with women, but my romantic interest has always just been men, 
Leyna: You kind of sound like you’re bi-situational. 
Guest: Yeah, that could be it bi-situational. 
Leyna: And of course, Shane likes to watch because he's a man. 
Guest:Yeah. 
Guest: Well as it turns out he likes to watch, regardless of if it's a man or woman that I'm with.
Leyna 5:20
Uh huh. Did it turn you on Erin, that it turned him on to watch you with other people?

Guest 5:24
Oh yeah, it was great like feedback loop we have there. 
Leyna: Does it work the other way around. Like are you turned on watching him with other people?
Guest:  not as much, not as much as he is I'm turned on by the whole group plays situation, and watching other people experiencing that going on around me but I wouldn't want to just sit back and just watch him.

Guest 5:45
That is something that I would actually do, I would definitely sit back and just watch her either be with a woman, another guy, I would enjoy just being in the room and seeing that happen without being involved.

Leyna 5:57
Okay, but when you're not involved, though, is it still a turn on I mean are you turned on
Guest:  Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 
Leyna: And then, are you just watching. Are you doing anything else?

Guest  6:08
that would kind of depend on if Erin had a preference for that particular scene, as we talked about these particular fantasies between the two of us. I'm very comfortable, just watching, if she wants me to just sit back, even like fully clothed in a corner, and watch, or if I'm sitting back jerking off and getting off to it, waiting for the moment when I decide that I'm going to actually enter the scene, and, you know, join in the whatever is going on. So, any of those situations would work for me,

Leyna 6:41
at what point in your life did this become a lifestyle thing, because it sounds like when you were in college it was you know you're young you get crazy you get drunk, whatever it happens and then you know it didn't happen that often. When did it start happening more often.

Guest 6:56
It is been a long on again and off again road, I think we probably created our first profile on adult friendfinder Back when that was a thing. 
Leyna: Is it still around, is it.?
Guest: I have no clue if it's still around, but it was set up as find friends in your area. It wasn't a swinger site, or an even a dating site, and we had, we had a few experiences some of them good some of them a little bit more tense and, you know, didn't sit as comfortably with us, but we met one couple, they were more experienced and also think they were 10 years older than we were, and they were our Yoda couple, as I think the average swingers would refer to it. Having a Yoda couple to teach you things we the first time we went to one of our local clubs, it was with them because they knew everyone there. We ended up becoming really good friends with them and hanging out with them a lot, just because we enjoyed each other's company so much, and we did learn a lot from them, even if we didn't end up playing with them that much,

Leyna 8:00
you guys then would good recommend that if you're new in the swinging lifestyle that you get yourself some swinging coaches,

Guest 8:08
yeah that made all the difference for us, it took a lot of the pressure off and we've since met more couples like that that has a little more experience, even whether they're older or not. It's just they're so relaxed and comfortable with what they want that, if you're new, they can kind of go at your pace.

Leyna 8:27
Okay so, by the way, adult finder, you may have to go back because you now have like 10,500 messages waiting for you. 
Guest: If we knew what the password was. 
Leyna: Okay, so that was in your late 20s Now, you see that you're on again, off again. Why has it been that way? I mean it because you enjoy it right? 

Guest 8:47
We enjoy it when it works out well. Oh, We are both. I wouldn't call Shane shy, I am shy and very introverted, so the social part of it can be challenging for both of us who for different reasons that me I'll let him explain his reasons but it can take a lot out of us like a lot of energy, a lot of planning, and then if it doesn't go great, it's kind of a distant summons to keep working that hard for it.

Leyna 9:18
Yeah, can you tell me, like, when it doesn't go well, what are you talking about?

Guest 9:20
well it took us quite some time to figure out what we would call our play style is there were some kind of lackluster experiences, some of which were with a couple that you mentioned earlier that we were that we played with in college. It really probably had to do with my comfort level with what was happening and me with the other person, it takes me a while to feel comfortable with someone else, so well we didn't have any like truly bad experiences, there were some that were just kind of like that's not enough to make you want to go back for more.

Leyna 9:55
So it wasn't worth the effort you've put into it. 
Guest: Right. 
Leyna: But you have had some great experiences right? Y
Guest: Yes, we have. 
Leyna: So when you think about like some of those experiences that like make you want to come back for more. What were those experiences like?

Guest 10:12
for me, it was experiences where everyone was together and interacting in a just fun, light hearted, communal kind of way and when the term puppy pile comes to mind, like everyone's in it together, but what I've learned about myself is I don't like the separation, at least not for very long but Shane's with someone across the room and I'm with someone else kind of far apart. So that's that's sort of what we've discovered is that I, I prefer to have it be a group thing. 
Leyna: Like, even in the same room is not close enough for you? 
Guest: Not for very long. I prefer the whole experience to be everyone together.

Leyna 10:49
Okay, can you tell me what that actually means when people say puppy pile, I'm actually, you know, it's like well what are you doing you're laying on top of each other, and what's going on?

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Leyna 12:38
And, is that the same thing as an orgy is an orgy a puppy pile?

Guest 12:41
Orgy is usually argued about the number of people who were in it. Some people would say it typically starts at five some six, I know there's some arguments for seven. We've been in a six some I think is the largest that we were in, but what Erin means by a puppy pile is, it's, it's not just me with another woman off doing our own thing and only touching each other and only interacting with each other, while she is with another guy only interacting with him, and even if we're eight inches apart, that there's no interaction between the two couples, because no matter how close we might be or as distant, that still feels like a separation between us, whereas when it's full group play, I might be having sex with the other wife, while the other wife is making out with Erin while Erin is doing something with the other husband, and everyone's kind of involved as a, as natural for rather than being split off into two pairs.

Leyna 13:46
Is there anything that, that you don't like Erin is there anything like you'd like all the interaction but are there certain activities that you don't want to see your husband doing.

Guest 13:57
I don't think that there's much activity wise that, that I would have a problem seeing it's it's like he said it's more about the connection between the two of us. So, even if it's just eye contact or little bits of conversation in between things, maintain that connection

Leyna 14:14
and then Shane How about you, I mean, Sounds like you're okay with whatever.
Guest 14:19
Yeah, pretty much it. I mean, it's I don't even need to see stuff, if I was away on a business trip or gone for a weekend and she wanted to have a guy come over and do that, I would enjoy that, particularly if I was aware of it beforehand, I got pictures during, and then I got to hear the full story when I got home
Leyna: so more like what is that thing 
Guest: hotwifing 
Leyna: where the stag and Vixen type thing.
Guest: Yeah,

Leyna 14:48
let's talk about stag and Vixen, and I love this because you guys are both writers and sometimes you hear all these words thrown around, and I know that everyone kind of has their own interpretation of what these words are there is a general definition right so stag and Vixen, what are we talking about?

Guest 15:04
usually when people refer to a stag and Vixen, and it's it's usually in conjunction with a hot wifing scenario where the husband enjoys when the wife is with other men. It doesn't actually tell you if the husband wants to be in the room, if he wants to be involved in a threesome. If he's comfortable with the wife doing it without his knowledge or without him being there, but it does imply that there is no level of cuckolding going on so he is not being dominated in any way by her having sex with other men. Instead, he is part of that, you know, dynamic, that he wants her to go and do that and is happy that she's going in doing that.

Leyna 15:54
Okay, so no submissiveness, right, in a stag. Now, is a vixen and a hot wife pretty much the same thing?

Guest 16:01
they pretty much are the reason that I like to use stag and Vixen, is when you say hot wife, there are two implications to it, actually there's three. There's the hotness, because you're suggesting that the hot and I don't think we should rate people like that. There's the wifeness, which is implying that there's marriage involved when you do not need to be married in a married relationship in order to want to experience this kind of play, and it does not give any information as to whether there is any cuckolding involved. When you say hot wife, it's there's so much wiggle room in what that means, it basically just means a woman who's in a relationship, who's having sex with other men, but the level of permissiveness that she has from her husband and his level of involvement, are not defined. So by saying we're stag and vixen. I'm saying that I'm not a cuckold I'm not being dominated, and even if there was a gangbang going on. I'm in charge that situation if I say stop, everyone has to stop, you're not there to use my wife and ignore me. I’m in control.

Leyna 17:12
Alright, class is in and you guys class has started. I love it! Okay so how long have you been in the lifestyle, let's not consider the college stuff. Let's consider the lifestyle after you had the conversations you know you're like adults, and not drunk. How long have you been doing it?
Guest:  10 years, when you searched. Yeah,

Guest 17:38
I would, I would have thought that we started getting back into it, and started looking at dating again in our early to mid 30s We discovered one of the issues with having a Yoda couple, and having a single couple that you are very much involved with, we just clicked with them so well that we spent most of our time with them when we had the free time rather than looking for other couples, and then something happened in their relationship and they ended up breaking up, and when that happened, We were kind of left with nothing because we weren't we hadn't been dating, our profiles hadn't been active. We hadn't been going to a club, we kind of were like in a freefall of, well I guess we're out of the lifestyle for now and we didn't, we spend a couple years not making any moves to reengage anything just to kind of like reassess.

Leyna 18:32
That's a really good point because I've had several people messaged me about that, about being in the lifestyle but not being, you know, like vanilla people would call you players because you're having sex with so many people, but when you're in the lifestyle, and you have, I would say like committed relationships within the lifestyle where you're kind of exclusive, and then something happens and you know there's somewhat of a breakup, it's really interesting that that happens in the lifestyle and it's not something that people often talk about. Do you feel like after that happened like, oh my gosh we're single again?

Guest  19:05
Always very much, that kind of Friends with Benefits model I guess we really like to be, to have a connection and to enjoy hanging out with the people, whether there's sex involved or not. So I think that that was sort of almost a shock like that that happened and it was like, Oh, we, we haven't been keeping up with this with anyone else because we just worked so well with them and we enjoyed their company and even if there wasn't sex happening it still felt like a lifestyle activity when we got together with them because we could talk about anything and they would tell us these great stories and I guess we were just getting all those boxes checked by hanging out with them and then it was just, we kind of experienced the consequences of not branching out,

Leyna 19:50
why did it end I mean so if they broke up, was it not an option to remain in some sort of relationship with one of them or both of them separately?

Guest 20:00
Oh I do actually I'm still pretty good friends with the female half, it's not quite the same dynamic when you have that four way interaction, typically now I'll just, I get together with her. Just to talk and catch up. 
Leyna: But that's like a friendship. 
Guest: It’s a friendship yes absolutely right,

Leyna 20:19
so no more sex. Right. What is your wish. Moving forward, I mean have you how long ago did this breakup happen?

Guest 20:24
That's got to be like six or seven years now. I think that both of us hope that the social part of it would become a little bit more natural to us that we could meet more people and become friendly with more people. Of course that pandemic really put a wrench in that we were we were kind of ready to start putting ourselves out there and more and then. Here we are for the past year and a half, kind of stuck. So,

Leyna 20:49
but after that breakup Did you, did you get back into it, did you, you know, kind of put yourselves out there?

Guest 20:54
we did eventually and we have met several really great couples, some of which we've had some experiences with before the pandemic. So we're hopeful that we can get back into it.
Leyna: and has play style changed at all?

Guest 21:07
It has to some extent because we've been able to identify more specifically what it is, it's not so much that our style has changed so much as we've figured out where we want the focus to be.
Leyna: which is where right now?
Guest: friendships with other couples and group interactions, when we’re playing.

Guest 21:30
a lot of things are defined in the lifestyle by the action or the activity. So when you talk about full swap or soft swap, you're usually talking about full swap means that we'll have full penetrative penis and vagina sex with other couples, And if you say soft swap, that's usually defined as, pretty much anything up to full swap, but it does not include penetrative sex. And then you have things like same room, different room, but those are still defining activity. What we discovered is that it is not the action that causes problems but more of the emotion behind it, and how connected we feel in the activity. So Erin, doesn't have a problem with me full swapping with another woman and having sex with another woman. If she's there and a part of it and kind of in the group and we have a group thing going and she can touch me and I'm there, next to her and the entire group is merge, she would have more of an issue, and it would be totally not allowed for me to get a blowjob from a girl, all the way across the room from her, because it's not the action of oral sex versus penetrative sex. That's the problem. It's how connected we are during it, but because most things in the lifestyle when you read profiles and what people talk about when they answer what they're into people define what they do by the actions that they do. So it took us a long time to actually figure out that the vocabulary we were using didn't work for us,

Guest 23:15
and Shane gets all fired up about the meaning of words as you can tell

Leyna 23:17
you what, Because you're so awesome with words. I am going to with your permission, take the glossary and of course credit it to you guys so people can know who made up this great glossary of terms. So people, not only just in the lifestyle but vanilla people too can take a look at it and figure out what the hell we're talking about on this podcast, okay. So take a moment right now Shane and Erin, if you were to kind of put an ad out there about yourself. Since so many profiles depend so much on the things that people will do if you had to make a case for this is who you are and what you're in what you're looking for, How would you describe yourselves?

Guest 23:58
Oh, let me pull that up because I think I have a lot of those words that actually,
Leyna: let's hear it. 
Guest: Okay, so this is what I wrote and the next time we actually get onto one of our profiles, we'll be updating it with this language I put, we're a full swap couple that we tend not to play on first dates and usually only soft swap on our first swap experience, seeking out parallel play cross play and group play. We like to remain connected to each other, and prefer when played keeps everyone together rather than pairing off, we'd like making lasting connections with other people and enjoy developing, pants on, as well as pants off friendships. 
Leyna: Nice.

Leyna 24:36
I think that that explains you guys quite well actually. Pair that with a few hot pictures, you are good to go. What are some of the kinks that you guys have, like, what are you into?

Guest 24:50
I'm into BDSM as the sadist, and the dominator, and she is. Fortunately, into that on the other side, we've also discovered that you're both into her, like when we have other single guys or even, we haven't yet had more than one single guy we've had several threesomes with another guy.

Guest 25:14
Yeah, I'd say we both kind of discovered that we like both exhibitionism and voyeurism.

Leyna 25:23
Big thanks again to sex on the fringe for the use of their glossary, you can see it on our website consenting adults show.com And you can find this couple on Twitter, they're at sex on the fringe. Next time on consenting adults. They started out as friends with benefits. Then they got married. Then they got freaky. 

Guest 25:44
Once we got to his room like I think I dropped to my knees and I started blowing him. And I think you might have been making out with him until you started helping me blow him, which was like, 
Leyna: Okay, have you seen your husband do this before. 
Guest: No, never, ever in my life, 
Leyna: listen to their story next time on Consenting Adults.