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Forget what preconceptions you may have about swingers. Guest Erin Kaley talks about how she and her fiance are finding like-minded people who are also happy, smart, and successful, to share sexy experiences in non-monogamy. Erin also talks about their struggles with jealousy and how embracing it to understand it has made their sex life hotter and more fulfilling as they add more partners.
EP 048 - The Unsuspecting Swingers
00:00:01 - 00:05:00
Everything goes there. There's like men fucking men. There's obviously women with women and all there's orgies and then there's the x frames there. There's all the sex toys but it's it's a large venue. I love women. I just love our feminine bodies and our forms. But I really love cock too so I feel like I need both in that part of the equation. I love going down on women. I love like. I definitely love everything about that but I also love watching him with another woman. Germany I think has probably the biggest density of sex clubs there is. Germans are the kinkiest culture I have yet to meet. Really?! And so you would be very surprised about the cities that you go to have these clubs. One of my friends actually has a, she calls it her passport wherever she travels, she goes to a local sex club because they're always very inviting to her as a single woman. I'm just sitting back in this chair in the hotel room watching her like in ecstasy from him from riding him and having him go down on her so... It's I just feel like a cheerleader on the other side like go babe! And he said well you know I-- I don't not like making out. I just don't like the way that you make out. And I was just staggered. I mean we were sleeping with other people already.
(PODCAST SHOW OPEN)
Leyna: My guest today is Erin who seven years ago got on a swinger dating website created a profile kind of dipped her toes into this. She did it along with, I'm assuming he was your then boyfriend?
Guest: Yes boyfriend.
Leyna: He's now her fiance and they did this while they lived in San Diego. Where are you now?
Guest: We are in Spain in Major ca in the Mediterranean. Nice.
Leyna: Do you find that Americans are a little more uptight about sex than most people in other areas of the world, especially where you are?
Guest: Absolutely absolutely one hundred percent. It's funny though. Because my European friends here believed that Americans are very sexually explorative and very open about that because all they see is Hollywood and they see us wearing these vampy dresses and they think that all Americans are like even when they go visit America. That was something that I really saw at an early age about how repressed we are sexually as a culture in the U-S .
Leyna: Is there a big swinger or lifestyle population over there that you know of? In Europe?
Guest: In general there definitely is, especially in Germany. Germany I think has probably the biggest density of sex clubs are as Germans are the kinkiest culture I Have yet to meet.
Guest: Absolutely, have you heard of -- there's a club called kit kat. Everything goes there. There's like men fucking men. There's obviously women with women and all there's orgies and then there's the x frames there... this all the sex toys but it's it's a large venue . But in general like especially when we in Paris they're sex clubs there in all over the world. It's something as we know like in this community. Everything is very underground and so you would be very surprised about the cities that you go to that have these clubs. One of my friends actually has a--she calls it her passport wherever she travels. She goes to a local sex club because they're always very inviting to her as a single woman.
Leyna: All right okay. So why did you guys start that profile was anything missing was it stale or were you just adventurous?
Guest: Yeah so you know him and I connected early on in our relationship as both being very sexually explorative and we neither of us had had this kind of relationship before and the reason why it came up was because we are very open about talking about this part of our lives and part of our past in what explored in what we wanted to do next and he had just randomly brought up the story about when his friend had snuck him in to a sex party to a swingers party
Leyna: Like in his backpack, what do you mean snuck him into a sex party?!
Guest: He worked at a hotel so he knew this swingers party was gonna do a hotel takeover so he snuck his friend in, which was my fiance now and he said it was the wildest thing you've ever seen and I'm sitting there like wait a second. My previous understanding of swingers was that you have --and I have no idea where I got this idea from but it was you go to these parties, and you throw your keys in a jar and you take who's ever keys and again, I have no idea where I got that from.
00:05:00 - 00:10:01
But that's what I thought it was and then we're like we have to see what this is because the sounds so interesting and we watched a couple of youtube videos and we said okay. We're both into group sex. We both We love this dynamic. So why not explore it.
Leyna: Okay so then you you both have had group sex before.
Guest: Yes like threesomes. Yeah we've had threesomes.
Leyna: That's not really group.
Guest: True. Not like not anything like a swingers party for sure. I felt we were both interested in it. I think it'd be really hot to have sex together with another couple Be a cool way to even get to know ourselves better. The funny thing is I do think is a lot of people especially my friends who are vanilla or not lie style. They always think. I o is it because something was boring. But it's not it's it's a totally different thing. It's like apples and oranges there. You can't compare the two it.
Leyna: Would you say that is actually just the opposite that you actually need a relationship that's pretty strong right? In order to take part in lifestyle activities?
GuestL Yeah yes okay. That's another thing too. I always see that's troublesome like I have some friends or that have had friends Our friends had trouble with their marriage so they decided to open the marriage. And see what happened and is interesting how. That's always the first way to go to like. Oh introducing other people in our relationship will fix it when in actuality it just blows everything to pieces because it is very confronting to your insecurities when you are in the lifestyle or any sort of like really non monogamous relationship. Your insecurities are right in front of your face. You can't be possessive every partner and just tell them you're not allowed to look at other women because like when you're in lifestyle everything is right there you have to confront it. You have to work through it. Which I found to be like one of the coolest benefits of this really feel more solid and confident as a person and expressed in my sexual.
Leyna: What I'm interested in talking to you about is because sometimes when swingers tell their stories people like oh so they dip their toes and it was great is the greatest thing. They're never looking back but a lot of times. We don't discuss kind of like the growing pains of swingers right. It's the challenges and the struggles and the hurdles that you have to go through before it becomes something awesome. So let's talk about that. I mean like first thing on everyone's mind especially vanilla people is jealousy. Like how could you do that. I wouldn't be able to do that kind of thought. Was there jealousy? Did you have to deal with that.
Guest: Yes so it's one of my favorite stories to tell because there's been multiple moments of jealousy that both of us have had to work through but one of my favorite moments was. We started dipping our toes into the water within the first year of our relationship, so we were always very open and honest in having these kinds of conversations and then three years into our relationship. I had always thought that he didn't like making out. I thought that he was. He was always kind of avoidance. Like having this make out thing. I don't know if it was like the teenager in me. I wanted to have real make out session. But he was never into it. And I just thought that that was not his thing which fine like I can get that.
Leyna: Do mean like kiss your like kissing?
Guest: Yes, kissing like he loves kissing. But as soon as it became a total make out session. Which would that's what I would call it as a teenager. That's when he would kind of like you know switch gears and eventually I said yeah kinda sucks you don't like making out and he said well you know I I don't not like making out. I just don't like the way that you make out and I was just staggered. I mean sleeping with other people actually. At this point we had opened our relationship further so we were having solo adventures. And so we're at this whole new level of open and honest and I'm thinking mean we have been working on this for years like if this was something that you didn't enjoy like I'm all for like I'm a total nerd in lingerie. I love learning new things like. Let's try to do it differently. Teach me how you like to do. You know I went through this whole spiral. And then I felt I thought I thought I felt better about it. And then when he was back in San Diego he went on this date with this girl. And I'm one of those ones that loves. We love sharing all the dirty details or stories so as telling me the whole like he was at the bar and then he leaned over and they started making out at the bar. And at the moment at that moment I didn't realize what had triggered me and we were on the phone when he was telling me this if he didn't see this whole like meltdown on this and I just felt like love that had poured over my body. It was the most. I'll like just a heavy heavy feeling that I hadn't felt in so long and I didn't know what had had so we got off the phone
Leyna: Wait but did you recognize it as jealousy?
Guest: I knew I was jealous. But I didn't understand why and that's and that's the thing is that I hear people all the time friends especially in response to me telling the lifestyle first thing they say is like. Oh that's cool. I will never be able to do it. Because I'm a jealous person and I think that that's something that we really need to work on. A culture is because there is no such thing as the jealous type.
00:10:01 - 00:15:02
Jealousy has an umbrella term. And that's what. I came to understand because after the call I literally went to google and I typed in what is jealousy and I am. One of the first things that came up was jealousy is an umbrella term. it's not an actual feeling and that's why people get stuck in jealousy because they don't get curious about what is beneath that. So then I went back through the story and I was like okay. There has to be something that triggered me in this and it was as soon as he has said that they start making out the bar. And then I realized oh. I'm still insecure. About the way that I kissed him because he doesn't enjoy it and then as soon as identified that it was an instant lift and it was so mike. Oh okay cool well. I need actually be more proactive about learning new ways to kiss like. Let's get more explorative about this. And so then. I was able to him
Leyna: So did you? I mean what didn't he like?
Guest: There’s a funny thing so really it was just I am, I guess I'm a hard kisser. I really get into it and I just go in and
Leyna: You're like the stiff tongue person? You're ..right?
Guest: But I. I don't even do tongue like that much. I mean
Leyna: YOU Don't?
GUEST: I don't . I usually received more time than I give and so now I'm like because I've never had anyone say that to me like I've done a bunch of make out sessions at this point and so I'm thinking like oh cool. I’M well reviewed and then he has. He likes this pullback. He likes very soft and slow kissing. So now you have it figured out. But that's what. That was the trigger. Because I thought that I had I thought that had dealt with it. I thought that I felt more confident. In the way that I was kissing him but in reality I was just still avoiding kissing him because every time I started kissing him I started getting into my head of thinking like but am I doing it. Right is he. Is he liking it. Which is so funny. Because we talk about you know. Oh you're with this women and you did x y z… and you're going down on her and then she and I love all these details than this one little thing and that's because it showed me a part of myself that I was not confident but I felt so empowered by going that extra step because then it didn't control me then. I got to enjoy the whole amazing story of him. Having this like amazing night with this woman. And I didn't have to just sit there and feel like shit you know. I didn't have ideal. Like terrible. And heat and I wish more people would be curious of looking beyond that and I think that's what lifestyle can do for you because you can't get away from it if you if you are insecure about something it's gonna be triggered but just is understand that it's not a comparison game. It's not about who's better --I love you know going down another woman with him. Because I'm always like oh. What new skills does she have. What can I learn. And and if he really loves it enjoys like that's something. I want to learn but I don't see it as like. Oh why why does she know this trick. How does she able to do this to him.
Leyna: You mean going down on him with another woman?
Guest: No--going down on her... Yes, sorry on him. Sorry I'm totally messing it up now. In terms of like an orgy and group sex.
Leyna: Okay so you so you enjoy going down on him with another woman.
Leyna: so you can learn other skills.
Leyna: if she's all right. Have you done it the other way?
Guest: Yes absolutely.
Leyna: Are you bisexual?
Guest: Yes well I yeah, I would say I'm bisexual. I've actually never dated a woman or been with a woman solo. That's still kind of on my lesson. I wonder if I was still get because I love playing with women like my favorite dynamic is a threesome like with a MFF I love that. Because I love women. I just love our feminine bodies and our forums. I really love cock too. So I feel like I need both in that part of the equation but I've never explored it star not gonna rule it out.
Leyna: So what do you think it's a is it. Just a physical thing and is part of the thing about a threesome. That you like is actually seeing your partner with this other woman or do you like the female female thing.
Guest: I like the female female thing. Oh I love I love. I love going down on women. I love like. I definitely love everything about that. But I also love watching him with another woman my sexiest memories were we had linked up with this girl. In Chicago's and we’d taken her out on a date which was also really fun to like. Take out another girl and we went to a comedy show and went to dinner and it was like this really fun build up and it was really nice for me too because I'm very. I've always been very bold with. Men will ask for what I want and I go after they like. If I see someone that's really attractive. Navarro always go up to them. But with girls I get so shy in dole. My fiance thinks it's absolutely hilarious.
00:15:02 - 00:20:03
Because he's like. I don't I don't understand why like because he's like who's going to make the first move and but that was nicer because I was able to have the spilled up in like build up confidence in have some sort of report with her but anyway that was one of my favorite memories. Was that night in Chicago. Because I'm just sitting back in this chair in the hotel room watching her like in ecstasy from him from riding him in having him go down on her so fine. It's I just feel like a cheerleader on their side. Like go babe.
Leyna: alright so you've done the m. f. f.
Leyna: and obviously you've done the fmf.
Leyna: Have you done the gosh …F
Guest: With two guys?
Leyna: Well there’s… so but there's f. m. no mfm . M … F…M right?
Guest: Yeah okay not as well.
Leyna: How about the m.m f.
Guest: So I will be honest. I'm not sure the difference ... I'm not that sure about the the differences between the because of the the m.m f. is when
Leyna: That means there's stuff going on between the M and the M right ?
Guest: So we haven't done that we haven't explored that.
Lena: Is there any interest?
Guest: I don't know actually. It should actually be something that I ask. But he hasn't brought it up yet. Okay so it's not like he's definitely not like oh I can't be touched by other men. I think that okay. If you're having any he's totally he loves the the mfm because he loves watching me with another man. Because you're up so often close with your partner. You don't get to see these angles and also seeing someone else. Get pleasure by your partner's just has. Leyna: It's live porn.
Guest: It is your favorite porn star right in front of you all right.
Leyna: Is there anything that That you haven't done that you've kind of want to?
Guest: So one of the things that I I would love to do is do like a small like at a house party. That's more like orgy. That's all honestly on one of the things like I am doing coaching. But one of the things. I really curious about doing in the future is doing these events because I have been to a bunch of different parties but there. I just feel like they're lacking a lot of ways and I would love to have people get to know each other more in kind of build this because one of the things that we have. We have friends in the lifestyle that just like like to get down and dirty fast. That's their style. But we found that both of us are more like we want that chemistry. We wanna feel that connection with people. Because I was in Lisbon. I was super naughty. One weekend and I was just super horny and I was like okay. Well let's see what I can get into all the trouble and so I thought I'd try like this guy organized sex online and I'm just going to have a directly over to the house because I thought that would be hot and it was sex. You know but you don't-- for me I just don't do this for quantity. I do it for like this other. Like how do I express myself to someone that's totally different from my partner. Because there's all these different kinks in all these different flavors of of men and women and it was just like there was not enough buildup.
Leyna: And so you you want to start having sex parties of your own.
Guest: Yeah that's one hundred percent on my vision board.
Leyna: What makes a good sex party in your mind?
Guest: One of them is definitely the number of people that are there. Because I think that when there's too many it could definitely be hot right because you end up with a dog pile that's what you get it. Some of these larger swinger parties that we went to one that was hosted by a company called plush parties for example in palm springs and it was amazing. Because there's so many different people there to meet. But I had liked the more intentional about the kind of people that we curate together. Like I would personally like to get to know people and then curate. A group of maybe ten people max and then we rent a finca here on the island or do some really cool like destination and some of these other beautiful European destinations. Where it's like a weekend and so we get to have like hang out and have dinner together and have fun but then there's always the other side of it where you can just. Hey do you wanna go up to our room. And and I just I like that chemistry piece of it in plus to be really fun to invite some sex educators end so he could do some fun like classes and just the open. Because I think that's one of the coolest things also about this. Is that when you go to parties. You meet the coolest people we've met people that are so friendly and so open and the truth is is that expressed and they can talk to the partners openly about what they want and they can experience everything on the spectrum of what their fantasies are in. So you and I would love to be more around more of these kinds of people.
Leyna: When we're talking about the different types of people and being able to more or less control the group in control the kinds of people that you're getting together with most people who don't know the lifestyle like you with the key party thing whatever it is and I don't know where we all got it because I had the same thing right.
00:20:03 - 00:25:08
I don't know where I got it. We don't have swinger education yet. We all think of the swingers as kind of these creepy people who you know the they get together and it's like oh but I wouldn't really want to have sex with those people and yet I'm finding out that there are professionals. There are attractive intelligent people. Can you talk more about the types of people you do run into the lifestyle.
Guest: Yeah you know. I think that that's great that you said that because there are extremely attractive very intelligent people and and that's also really part of funny. Part of the experience is because you meet the especially parents. I love meeting parents because we met this really cool couple. They're so hot both of them and she said because she was in this crazy. Cool like puffy outfit came. remember the theme. That was that night and her daughter-- she videoed her before she came down for the party. And she's like. "Why are you wearing these clothes." And she's like " oh. We're going to a halloween party." And she's younger right so she doesn't understand that it's not even October. We're not worth us halloween. But it was so cute because she's able to still. She calls her daughter before she goes in has her adult time and she's not putting aside like her desires to just be a mom and so I love seeing those dynamics with parents and then there's obviously some very high profile people so that's one of the things that was interesting too. Is I feel like a lot of the people that I do. Find at parties are very confident in their relationships. They've very healthy relationships. Great communication but then they also like highly successful. And I think again that comes to like if you are confident in yourself and you feeling good about yourself and what you've created in your in these other areas of your life than you can feel comfortable exploring sex. I would be interested in diving more into that theory in seeing that but everyone that we've met his very successful very successful and usually very financially successful as well and I hear interesting--
Leyna: Erin-- . Here's my theory
Guest: Okay. I love to hear it.
Leyna: Because I've seen it with people I know. But I think that the more successful and more powerful you are like the more kink you need like the regular stuff. Just doesn't do it for them anymore. They want more. It's kinda like they can have a little Honda but no they want the Mclaren.
Guest: Right is they're not afraid to ask for the most so they can have more and and they can handle it. They're not settlers. They don't settle for mediocre right.
Leyna: And but I think it's just-- the more you have the more you want but back to the theory and the theory was I know some really rich powerful people and they're freaky! They're freakier than anyone else I know and I don't know-- I really think that it's like the richer you are, the more powerful you are, the more kink you need.
Guest: And I think there's two sides of that. Because I think also it's this idea of security-- like I think in our these relationships like that's what we're talking about earlier right is that you have to have a healthy relationship. This is not like this last ditch effort of like let's open it up and throw in other people in the mix and it's gonna save our marriage. Because you do -- you do need to have this level like this high level of radical honesty and openness with your partner on whatever spectrum that is like some couples don't share all the dirty details and that's totally fine as long as it's agreed and that's also what I love is that every agreement is unique to every couple everyone that's in the lifestyle is very aware of their unique. And no one's trying to push you outside that either. The most consensual sex I've ever had . Like people are so respectful of your boundaries but I think that that's also where when you feel safe in your relationship you feel safe to explore because you feel like you have this to come back to. Being a swinger is not a gateway drug to being open. It's just that that's where we wanted to expand. We have tons of friends that have been in the lifestyle for years and years . They've never done these solo adventures. And that's totally fine. So I always I always get worry around that of telling people like once you have it, you're just going to want more and more and more because I'm like it's not a gateway drug -- relax! As long as they're on the same page, that's the only thing that matters.
Leyna: You enjoy the lifestyle on a level t hat's beyond just oh we get to go out and have sex with other people. You've really like to get into the psychology of the why as well right? And not just the what.
Guest: I've always been very sex positive. Always wanted to help people express themselves through sex. I think that sex is play. I think that sex can be an adventure. Regardless of what your relationship dynamic is how can you express yourself better and actually live out your fantasies, instead of just living them inside your brain.
00:25:09 - 00:26:16
Because I think that they deserve more than that and I think that there's no need for us to have mediocre sex lives or relationships that go stale and for some people that might be becoming monogamish in exploring an inviting other people into the relationship. But you know if you're not into group sex maybe that's not for you but there's a lot of us who who love it and there's just there's just some sex that you cannot have unless you have multiple hands in the mix.
Leyna: And if you want to connect with Erin. She's on instagram at "Turn on with Erin." Next time on Consenting Adults--What's harder to find than a unicorn? A cuckquean. But we found one -- actually, she found us and she's got a lot to share.
Guest And then she got on top of me when he finished. Sat on my face and I cleaned her out. It was--I definitely wasn't expecting it.
Leyna: Did it turn you on?
Leyna: That's next time on Consenting Adults.
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