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James and Emelia go from very religious to very adventurous! They get into the lifestyle thinking it's just for sex but find love and it gets a little messy. They describe going to their first sex convention and take us on their journey of redefining their marriage. You can find their blog at https://www.marriage-redefined.com/.
EP 040 - Marriage Redefined
00:00:01 - 00:05:05
We never even touched or kissed someone else and we decided we were just going to go all in Double penetration. Oh yes. For the first time. Yes. Seriously Emelia? You forgot about the double penetration? How could I forget about that. It’s kind of an important detail. I know. Oh my God. This beautiful woman answered the door in lingerie, gorgeous. We were like wow this is our life. I wanted to step back and watch. I used a vibrator I think. It was so hot to actually see. We not only experience you know watching each other kiss somebody for the first time that night. We got invited to a really cool party were people were walking around naked. And these were kind of really surreal things for us. Emelia had her first girl girl experience where she had sex with other women while I watched. And how, ok stop, slow down. Are people like walking around naked with a lanyard on. You don't really know how you're going to react until it happens. You think you're going to be fine. You're prepared you think it's going to be hot and then it happens and then you feel this rush of intense emotion that you weren't prepared for. Get ready this is Consenting Adults.
(Podcast Show Open)
Leyna: My guest today are a married couple happily married for sixteen years. Emelia is thirty-six. James is forty two. They tell me they grew up very religious. In fact, Emelia was a missionary. And we're not talking about the position. They've started swinging and are now in a poly triad with another woman and exploring. Wow okay so you were a missionary. Tell me a little bit about that.
Guest: Even hearing you say that out loud just makes me giggle like it’s so funny to think of how far we've come. Yes so I personally grew up in a very religious, I would say borderline cultish life with my family and then by the time I was seventeen I was traveling doing missionary work because that's what you do. So that's the direction I went. But when I back. I knew that wasn't for me. I needed to expand my horizons elsewhere. And that's right around the time I met my husband so life took a drastic change.
Leyna: James did you grow up in a religious family?
Guest: I did so. My family was very very Christian. And I mean my dad was like a youth music pastor so we both grew up kind of in that that religious side of things. My family was a little bit more open like sexually open. And they're kind of like the do as I say not as I do. My family was definitely more open minded with regard to sexuality and than hers was.
Leyna: So girl meets boy they fall in love. They get married. How would you describe your sex life before you got into this wild stuff?
Guest: About four or five years ago. I was traveling a lot for work. And I was thinking --the idea of non-monogamy wasn't even at my head. We have a great sex life already. How do we figure out how to talk about. How do we expand? As we reach twenty years of marriage and thirty and so on and so forth, we need to be able to grow together. So I was seeking a lot of new ways to try to figure out how I could help Emelia in some ways maybe communicate differently about it or maybe somebody else can help her. And I stumbled across some podcasts. I brought this home to her. And I said hey I stumbled across this podcast and I'm not saying I want to do this. I want you to at least listen to how they were able to talk to each other. Leyna: Tell me about what you discovered about yourselves that you didn't know once you started opening up.
Guest: I dated a girl in my late teens. And I had one or two fantasies back then of seeing her with somebody else is so that doesn't turn me on at the time I wasn't jealous. I didn't really care for her. You know as much as obviously I do my wife. But that fantasy did turn me on so I thought I was weird. I thought I was abnormal. As I thought you know this idea, when I was growing up every guy would say don't look at my wife or I’m gonna kill ya, For me it was like the opposite. Like the idea of somebody that I care about and love with somebody else actually turns me on. It took me years and years and years, I think to think through that. I did research on it now. Is this formal. Is there something wrong with me. I think the biggest thing for myself I’ve learned is that I’m much more adventurous than I gave
00:05:05 - 00:10:00
myself credit for, I think and that is really empowering. You know. It was really scary for so many years before I opened by mind up to possibilities of being non-monogamous and then I realized that if the second push through that fear--beautiful things happen. Our first journey into this is about two years ago into Naughty in New Orleans. That was our intro by the way we just decided-- yeah had we never even touched or kissed someone else and we decided we were just going to go all in. And booked a trip to Naughty in New Orleans because we’re like you know what-- make it a break it. So we went from like never even thinking about kissing somebody you know a week later Naughty in New Orleans. So that was kind of our first journey into this. And we had her first experience with beautiful people, we weren't jealous it was amazing. Yeah yeah it was really interesting but it was purely, so for us it was purely like how do we add to our sex life and make great friends.
Leyna: Okay hold on one second you two. You just made like going to Naughty New Orleans like a trip to the supermarket. Tell me actally what happened. You know. Because like I've never been and for anyone who's listening who's never been because that event comes up a lot in in in our interviews but what was it. What did you experience? What was it like?
Guest: We were both tired of being around vanilla people for 24/7 I’m just gonna say it. Like it got exhausting to be around people who we love so much that wonderful people but you can't talk aobut certain things or they're close-minded about certain things or you can talk about abc but don't talk about the rest. And so we really wanted to expose ourselves into a different environment of people who are open minded and free. So that's what we dove into and when we got there. Oh my god that's what we got. It is just come as you are. No pun intended or pun intended I suppose. It was it was very eye opening for us. We had never been to a sex club. I think we been to a strip club maybe twice in our marriage so yeah it was somewhat of shock but you know oddly, it felt oddly normal. You probably heard things. But they're young people there in old people there. Ages twenty to eighty. I think our first experiencing kind of wide- yed walking in a hotel room. And we met this person that he’s still friends of ours today. He said, Oh my God you guys hey and he give us his card. He was the kindest most open we thought w,ow we we had a better conversation with this guy for fifteen minutes then maybe we've had in some cases with friends that we've you know neighbors who we’ve had for five years and so that was really interesting. So yeah I mean we not only experienced you know watching each other kiss somebody for the first time that night. We got invited to really cool party. Where people are walking around naked. And these are very surreal things for us. Emelia had always been the one that’s kind of hesitant but when we had a situation we had dinner with a really beautiful couple and they're still friends today. And they said we love for you guys to come back our room with us. And Emelia and I got into the elevator and said we're gonna talk about this. And so we went back to our room and I said oh my gosh. I don't know if we who should do this. Emelia said come on, you only live once let’s go for it. I said we’re going to that room let’s go. I think that’s when things shifted in our marriage. That was a little bit of context to about ten months ago, we met a couple. They live in the pacific northwest and they—we started chatting with them and they said we're gonna fly down here. They came down for a weekend. We had a great time with them and we started to build a great friendship with them to answer your original question about jealousy we realize that we--jealousy isn't really a thing sexually. But it does, when emotions get involved. We built a very strong friendship with this couple and specifically with the woman. You know there were some bumps in all of us growing and figuring out what this was in what do we call it. And we do care about you as friends but we love our spouses in so we had all these dynamics. And so yeah we had a weekend where she flew down here to see us and there were a lot of awesome moments but there were some bumpy moments and we came out of that weekend with some jealousy. Oh for sure.
Leyna: Okay hold on hold on. So when you're saying bumpy moments, like what are you talking about?
Guest: You don't really know how you're gonna react until it happens. You think you're going to be fine. You're prepared you think it’s gonna be hot and then it happens and then you feel this rush of intense emotion that you weren't prepared for and that was really really hard for me because we had started this journey feeling like for sure this is just sex. I'm so turned on watching you. You're watching me let’s do this together, this is great but as soon as we started forming a real relationship with somebody.
00:10:01 - 00:15:02
Who's amazing, and we love. There were so many moments in that journey and probably still are to be honest with you wherever you go Oh my god like is this normal? Like is it normal for my husband to be out on phone call for an hour or two with someone else. Whatever it is, there’s a million little things that pop up that you don't ever have to think about until you're in that situation. Emelia gets very returned on watching me with with people. And I do with her too so it’s this interesting thing because the first night she watched me with her and we had wonderful sex on Friday night. Emelia was on the other bed. So turned on. Turned on and enjoying yourself. Yeah.
Leyna: Just watching?
Guest: Well I was part of it at first and then I wanted to step back and watch but I used a vibrator I think. And then I really just went into it because it was just so hot to actually see. I think after that experience we had these conversations about yeah that wasn't really intense situation and so I'm turned on by it but I also saw you maybe saw you kiss her differently than you kiss other people and some of these different dynamics were just first time for us. You know of of really figuring out. What does this all mean. Getting through all that learning how to navigate through that.
Leyna: Alright I've got so many questions.
Guest: We’ve got so many answers.
Leyna: I need to go back to this Naughty in New Orleans event. Is it like a convention? Do you check in, is it held at a big hotel? What is the event like? And then when you get there. Are there planned events, do you go to a party is everyone naked? Like I have no concept of what this thing is like.
Guest: Well, okay. So let's just described that for a second. It is a hotel takeover. This is a planned event you walk into the hotel. You get your badge get your room and then there are multiple events that you can attend on this three to four I think it goes up to five days? We went to for example, an anal like a porn star class and there are multiple classes that you can take. They have bar takeovers and competitions that you can go to. At night time they have different rooms and play rooms that you can walk around in and it's all within a certain area so people are coming and going and going to their parties or their rooms where they’re hosting parties. The possibilities are endless. You're basically on your own agenda saying okay, I’m gonna see these people or we’re going to go to this class or we’re going to go to this bar. There’s always a buzz. There's always something happening.?
Guest: No no, not quite in the beginning. But you know what's interesting, yeah good question. But you know people are mingling and having cocktails and you're seeing people get flirtatious within that first hour or so. And so you know you're there to make connections but you know there's also people like us that were there to make connections but were also there to learn so like she said we went to an anal like a porn star class. Which for some people might say. Oh my gosh. That's crazy but it was very informative, and cool. It was kind of medical going through the process and how the body works. And so I think also that makes it palatable in some ways because it's not just this big sex party, I mean people are--we met some really amazing people that are still friends today. We had mentors there, that are still friends today. And you know it's sure it's a sexual environment and of course you know you can play rooms at night and that's definitely a sexual environment. But there's such a high level of respect for everybody that we met. I mean nobody's pushy people are there to have sexual experiences in a lot of cases so you know that that's on the table.
Leyna: Okay so this was like your first intro into the lifestyle as is you go to this huge event. And did you like, did you play right away?
Guest: The first night we made out with a couple people then that was really fun and we went back and talked about it. Like was that weird for you? No, was for you? Not at all. That was really fun so we were open to kind of pushing it little bit more. When we actually had a date with another couple and it went so well, we really enjoyed the conversation I think that was night two or three and that's when it just clicked for us. And we thought well, yeah. Let's do this. We people that we've actually are having a connection with. The time is now. Let's try this out. They were very like wonderful couple. They're an experienced couple and just amazing. So that even from the second we walked into their room the temperature was perfect. Everything was perfect. This beautiful woman answered the door in lingerie. Gorgeous. We were like wow. This is our life? First of all, we kind of get cold too so like wow this is a perfect eighty one degrees in here. So you know we walk in the lighting's perfect but most importantly they were so respectful and amazing. Not pushy, just kind wonderful people. Sexy yeah incredibly, incredibly sexy people but yeah. Emelia had her first girl-girl experience where she had sex with another woman while I watched.
00:15:02 - 00:20:04
Leyna: Oh, wait. Okay. Stop. Slow down. So before this you would have identified a straight Emelia?
Guest Oh for sure. I was really not thinking that I would be bi. I would probably just have fun experimenting playing women a little bit, I thought it was hot. But I definitely picture myself bi now and that was the first situation where I thought, she was so wonderful and so beautiful. And I found it so easy to get into it and have sex and do all things. So went away from that thinking I want more of that. Let's try that again. Yeah, and for me I mean we went from like just a couple of years earlier. You think about this just even a year earlier of not having many sex conversations in a period of ten to twelve years to fast forward. I'm sitting in a chair. watching my wife have sex with another woman at a sex conference. And so I think for both of us it’s a very surreal kind of situation right that you find yourself in. So I think we were both we were kind of observing, it was a bit surreal but we also enjoyed the experience. For sure yes.
Leyna: And James, have you changed much?
Guest: You know. I am definitely straight. I love Emelia’s bisexual journey. I think it's beautiful. And we have some some male friends that bisexual. I have no problem with at all. I think it's a beautiful thing but for me personally it just-- it's just not my thing. But I think it's a wonderful thing. But you’ve changed in other ways. I’ve changed, I think my communication has changed. I think I was never really overly machismo growing up. But but I think even some of that of how do I view my wife now you know not that I ever really viewed her as a possession before, but when you grow up in a Christian environment, there's that, there's some of that dynamic. So really me being able to see her grow and come into her -- not only sexual side as a woman but being able to explore that with men and women and do it freely I think has been beautiful for us.
Leyna: You haven't really been in it that long. What all have you experienced in that time? You kind of went from like super vanilla to…
Guest: Well our first experience was soft swap then a few months later full swap. MFM. We did an MFM threesome with another guy that was a lot of fun. And then we had met our girlfriend now last year. With the MFM we did double penetration. OH yes! For the first time. Yes we did that.
Leyna: Seriously Emelia? You forgot about the double penetration?
Guest: How could I forget about that. It’s kind of an important detail. I know.
Leyna: Okay so you went from super vanilla to soft swap, full swap MFM, DP. What else? Orgies.
Guest: We have not done an orgy yet. So we kind of shifted a little bit more to exploring this dynamic with the three of us and then potentially with the four of us because our girlfriend is married to this really wonderful guy. And so we’re exploring that right now. We're not even sure what to label that. It’s funny we've asked a lot of people and said hey you think what we're doing is poly? And some people say no of course not and you ask another person and they say. Oh that's totally poly. So we label ourselves poly-light. Where we do care and love people and value people.
Guest: We started coining this term last year. Because we got into the situation where we were seeing particularly this one woman and we were getting feelings like real feelings for her and caring for her and that kind of got us to this position going well we’re not really swinging. Like this isn't like hooking up. This is like we're investing in who somebody is. Getting to know them and love them and have them be part of our lives. So what do you call that you know. Are we wanting to move in with each other and share our kids our lives? No, but do we love her? Yes. And we want to have a relationship and…
Leyna: You're not exclusive with each other?
Guest: Well we're talking about right now we're talking about it. You got us in the middle of probably a point to where we honestly we have an exclusive without saying we’re exclusive. Yeah. We haven't had a lot of experiences last few months and I think we’re discussing some of that now and I think you know some of the really complex side of things and we have some wonderful friends that are poly and they moved to the same state and live together now. And we have other friends that are just you know swinging and it’s more like a DTF situation so we've seen all sides of spectrum. So I think for now we're we're kind of in the middle of this really trying to figure out for ourselves you know, what the sweet spot is for us but we realized we do--
00:20:05 - 00:25:02
We do love this person and we do want her in our lives.
Leyna: You met this other couple. Did you full swap with this couple?
Guest: When we met this couple. We'd had some bumps with them and so…
Leyna: Bumps meaning what?
Guest: I think the first couple of nights we were together. You know things are great but you know somebody drank too much, there were kind of these little moments and that weren’t perfect so we thought we gotta do this again, this is so fun so we decided hey we're going to go meet them in Colorado, we got this beautiful condo in Breckenridge and we spent three days with them, and there was everything from altitude sickness, to communication problems, to spousal tips and horrible rain and we had a lot of fun with them. And we had a lot of play sessions and a lot of almost sex but we never fully swapped. Exactly, so at that time he came to us and he said hey guys. I'm dealing with some personal stuff. I need to kind of take a step back from this. I'm okay if Caitlin wants to continue, but he was processing some things himself. Some insecurities in some challenges. This was brand new for them as well. And we’ve stayed excellet friends with him, he’s one of my best friends. So we were able to kind of talk through this and make sure that all being respectful but we moved forward with her. And then after this weekend was the three of us. Emelia had a hard time and so she came to us and said I need to take a step back, this is a little bit different than what I was expecting and it's a little bit surreal and you were feeling some—a lot of different emotions I think, Yeah. So at that point you stepped back. We've been fucking rollercoaster. And we all came together and said that the three of us you know there is something here, and we do care and do you love you and we want you on our lives. And so let's figure out how to work through this. So we have been communicating through some of that and then this wonderful guy came back into the picture, Dan. He came back in the picture a couple of months ago. And said hey. I really processed through a lot of these things and feeling like I’m in a great place and you and him have kibd of reengaged and we are actually going to be meeting them sitting next week. For a 4-day we've got two days scheduled with her and two days scheduled with the four of us so it'll be a-- we haven't seen them, we haven't seen them, you know the 4 of us haven't been together in six seven months so we're looking forward to that.
Leyna: You sound like-- everything is still -- like you're still feeling everything out right. You're kind of really not settled into anything yet with this third person. Who's part of a couple. You might be like two couples dating each other regularly?
Guest: Yeah. What do you think? Itss such an interesting thing to figure out. Because I have have a relationship with her. So does James obviously and then we have this relationship with the three of us, where we feel like we're really nice fit as a triadic it really works out sexually we really love that dynamic. We know that we wanna move forward with that cuz we love it and then, figuring out if I move forward with Dan then how does that work? Do we now kind of do two couples or do you integrate. I guess the sky’s the limit. I guess we can kind of figure that out as we go but the bottom line is, I think it’s fun to figure it out and we can kind of write our own story. I don’t know, I’m a mess guys. Like listen to me, I don’t know what-- I think I think Emelia's saying that it's still a learning journey for us. So even though, we started listening to these podcasts four years ago, to or first night in Naughty in New Orleans to even now, the reason we got into this is to learn and grow with each other. And whether it's the first time that we kissed somebody to you know going on a three person weekend together, where we're watching each other, we’re still learning together and growing together. I think that's the most important part whatever experience but yeah we--I think we are still feeling our way through this, and even things like if we all move closer to each other. What does that look like? What's enough time what's too much. What's too little time and how long to be exclusive for. Right! There have been some feelings of jealousy at times with I think all four of the times right where even the idea of being with somebody else was a little uncomfortable. And then you tart to about. Why am I having that type of emotion. I don't have that emotions for my wife, but I have this other person.
Guest: That's a complex. That's a complex thing. Right? So I love my wife more than anything on a planet. I think it has to do --this is what we're learning. It has to do with that bond in-- I think in a relationship you want to build that level of stability and when you have that then like this sky’s the limit and Emelia and I already have that. And for us, swinging was easy. Being more down to fuck was much easier for us. It was. The internal work and the growth came as soon as we started figuring out how to do this with emotional connections to people.
00:25:03 - 00:25:54
Leyna: And I have an update on their weekend with Dan and Caitlyn. I'm told it did not go well but it clarified many things. And they're moving forward with Caitlin so now they're committed throuple. You can follow them on their journey. Just visit marriage-redefined dot com. Okay next time on Consenting Adults. It's the Chinese hotwife who describes herself as a queen of spades.
Guest: Queen of Spades means the women that are only interested in black man.
Leyna: Oh okay and then what was the other term you told me. You're a size queen, what does that mean?
Guest: It means I like large size penis. That's what it means.
Leyna: Okay so you are into the BBC.
Guest: That’s right.
Leyna: That's next time on Consenting Adults.
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