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Michael runs hotwife, cuckold, and BBC parties--bringing bulls and couples together for fulfilling fantasies. He has a girlfriend and a slave--all three live together. He's feeling bullish about his future in the world of kink and is hoping to educate even those in the lifestyle about things they may not be familiar with.
EP 38 – Feeling Bullish
There happens to be this fetish out there for women and couples who enjoy taking black lovers. All the friends that I've made in the past 10 years have been lifestyle people, and that's by design, like I really have no desire to have any more of another friends in my life because as far as I'm concerned, I got, I have enough of those. I have enough of those couple has a fantasy, and they're looking for someone who can make that fantasy a reality. So I guess, in essence, Yes, I am providing a service to train is more, it's still multiple guys, but it's her taking one guy at a time. Oh, one guy will get in when he's done the next guy, like a train. No, I've had, you know, a husband and a wife Suck my cock, you know, but in that dynamic, at least how I reconcile that in my brain is, it's just another mouse. I'm just saying it's, it's more of a power dynamic. When I do a party that is specifically for cuckold couples, then I encourage the husbands to show their cage, you know, cage. The type of male chastity is usually a cage that a man wears around his penis and it locks it up and usually his wife who is referred to as a keyholder, she'll have the key somewhere on her person she may wear a necklace she may wear it when an anklet or she may just keep it in her purse. Even in the swinging lifestyle, or the western lifestyle I knew most people have probably never met a real master slave couple, trust me, people had questions people were curious. Get ready. This is consenting adults.
(Podcast Show Open)
Leyna: My guest today is 51 year old Michael who's known in the lifestyle as a bull with over 20 years of experience. He's been hosting lifestyle parties for the past seven years, the New York City area, including hotwife, cuckold, and BBC parties, probably not the BBC, I was thinking about. In trying to figure out his arrangement for his relationships, he told me he has a girlfriend, and he has a slave. What are you talking about Michael?!
Guest: First of all thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you. When I say the term slave, you have to keep in mind that it's in the, in the BDSM context, there are themes of dominance they’re themes of submission. It's a, it's a vast playground to play in, you know, as far as tops and bottoms and daddies and littles and you know there are all kinds of things going on. And two of those components are master and slave, I guess the best way to explain a slave is, it's an extreme form of submission, where the person who is a slave has this desire to have more than just the sexual aspects of their lives, controlled by, you know, a dominant person and that is the dynamic that I have, so it's not slave like I would somewhere conk somebody over the head with a club. You know, it's just, it's in a BDSM context so those who are in the BDSM world, they’ll understand completely what I mean, those who are not. Maybe it will inspire them to kind of do a little bit of research before they make a snap judgment.
Leyna: Did I hear you say that it was, it's more than just a sexual thing?
Guest: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. You just have people out there in this world who are more comfortable when they are in positions where they don't have to make decisions, you and I'm saying it's basically like life altering decisions like it's much more comfortable for them to kind of have someone in their life whom they trust and respect who they know is looking out for their best interest you know maybe it's someone who recognizes the fact that you know what, I can be really impulsive and sometimes that impulsiveness gets me in trouble. So having this person in my life, kind of helps me keep that under control. It's more than just what goes on in the bedroom. It's it's life encompassing.
Leyna: Very interesting. What does your girlfriend, think about this.
Guest: Oh she's she's all for it. I mean it's, it's, we're going on 10 years together now. So we've all had the opportunity to kind of settle into our position and not saying that it's for everyone, but it works for us. You know what I'm saying so we're happy with it and we don't look back.
Leyna: Is there any interaction between the girlfriend and the slave?
Guest: Not in a way that most people will probably be thinking. Their dynamic I've kind of stepped back and kind of let it assume its own level, over the years it's taken on more of a maternal slash older sister, younger sister, dynamic because my girlfriend is 10 years older than my slave I'm in the middle, you know I'm five years older than my slave I'm five years younger than my girlfriend. It's kind of, that's the role that it's taken.
Leyna: Is there any sexual interaction between those two?
Guest: Not anymore in the beginning, there was but like I said as their relationship kind of saw its own natural level where their needs were fully being met. That's the position that it's gotten into, and I didn't want to interject my own wants or desires on to that, I mean I have enough going on in my life where I don't have to like force that on them, I just wanted them to get out of it when they needed most, and that's what the relationship has evolved into.
Leyna: Okay, outside of the girlfriend and slave, do you have sex with other people.
Guest: Yes, I do I'm, I've been a bull in the lifestyle for more than 20 years now but even though I said my slave, and my dynamic is not limited to sex. Sex is a big part of it, and I also have a static component to my personality where I enjoy seeing her with other men.
Leyna: So you enjoy seeing your slave with other men.
Leyna: How about your girlfriend is she in the lifestyle that way.
Guest: Oh, she used to be but because of some health issue, she's kind of taken a step back from that so not so much anymore.
Leyna: Okay, but she's completely fine with you doing your thing.
Guest: Oh absolutely, absolutely.
Leyna: All right. Okay, let's get into this. You've been a bull for over 20 years, like how did that start, how do you differentiate between just a young guy living a wild life versus being a bull.
Guest: Well, in my opinion. And again, there may be people out there who, who definitely opinions differ, but for me the difference because I've been that, you know, young guy kind of, you know, going to the clubs and all that kind of thing and there was a large part of my life where I was doing both simultaneously. And I would say the biggest difference in being a bull is when you're born you are primarily interacting with couples, so when you interact with a couple, you know what it is, meaning there's no expectation of dating is not hey us getting to know each other and, you know, or we're just platonic friends who, you know friends with benefits. It's not the kind of thing when you're just young and out there whether you're in the club or the gym or wherever, and you meet somebody, even though you may just be sleeping together. Most times, one of the, one of the two parties has expectations, even a girl was looking for a boyfriend or the boys looking girlfriend, or you're kind of test driving each other to see where it could go, whereas in a board dynamic, a couple is looking for something specific, you know, a third, and you just fulfill that role, and once you leave their presence, they go back to their life and you go back to yours, although friendships can develop, it's not always the case. Leyna: Are you providing a service?
Guest: I guess it would depend on how you look at the word service subcontractor, but I mean I guess in a manner of speaking, you could say I mean This couple has a fantasy, and they're looking for someone who can make that fantasy a reality. So I guess, in essence, yes I am providing a service.
Leyna: I'm looking at your web page, and I see that you have for instance, a private site for couples to find verified bulls.
Guest: Well that’s something that's in the works, we're in the process of building site is not ready for release yet but it's in the process of being constructed.
Leyna: Okay so it looks like you're developing a business and you're making the lifestyle, really, your life I mean it's not, it's not just something that you enjoy, it's now your work too Right?
Leyna: Are you pretty open to do all your friends and family know you do this?
Guest: Kind of sort of hidden. As far as family goes my mother and my sister know, as far as my friends go, I have enough another friend from, you know my childhood in high school and college years, some of them I still keep in touch with, but all the friends that I've made in the past 10 years have been lifestyle people, and that's by design, like I really have no desire to have any more of another friends in my life because as far as I'm concerned, I got, I have enough of those. So I tend to gravitate and seek out people who are in the lifestyle because I know there's more to them than just being in the lifestyle, it's just, I don't have to hide that part of my life like I still have the same conversations, you know whether we talk about movies or sports or politics or whatever, you know, we interact the same we go on trips we go to ball games, you know, we got the restaurants we go to movies, you know the same thing that you do with your regular friends, it's just, if they say well hey Mike how you spend your weekend, I don't have to come up with some elaborate story, I just say hey well I was with a couple Friday night, or, you know my sleeve and I went to a party Saturday night, you know, and there's no big deal about it, you know so that that's the part that I enjoy about having friends who are also in the lifestyle.
Leyna: Speaking of bringing your slave to parties, like when you walk into a party, is it clear, the kind of dynamic that you guys have and do most people get it?
Guest: In the beginning when we were new to the area, and going to parties, like we would get to the door, and I would put her leash and collar on. So, when we entered the room, people could see that. And the intent of me doing that was to kind of educate people, it wasn't to make a splash or beat show you was I know most people had probably never met, even in the swinging lifestyle. With a white shirt laughs I knew most people have probably never met a real master slave couple, trust me, people had questions people were curious and I was more than happy to answer their questions because I didn't, I didn't want to be seen as a curiosity piece I didn't want them to just kind of be standing on the other side of the room looking at us like we were weird or anything like that I wanted to give them an opportunity to say hey you know you've probably never been around this so this is what it is, this is what it really is so feel free to ask your questions.
Leyna: Did anyone ever like think that whoa this is something's wrong. Like this isn’t right, I've gotta help this woman.
Guest: It happened a few times you know there will be people who were not aware of it and rather just ask questions, they kind of made that judgment so there were a few instances where, you know, during the party somebody would try to steal her away to the bathroom and have like an intervention and try to quote unquote save her or rescue her, you know from this life that she was seemingly trapped in which we always had a good laugh and and I've talked to other couples that are heavily involved in BDSM and you know it's not uncommon, you know, unfortunately, you know, unfortunately there are people out there who, they just don't know and again it goes back to, offering that example, so that people could learn, because so many people have a misunderstanding about what it is,
Leyna: But in their defense, there are probably also women out there who are forced into some sort of. Yeah, I've heard of lifestyles where like, it's the guy's idea. The woman is kind of forced into it or didn't realize that she was going to a lifestyle party that kind of thing. So, it's not bad that they say hey, you know, woman, do you need help. It's just that you guys have a really different dynamic that even people in the lifestyle, are too familiar with right?
Guest: But I guess my way of looking at it is how many wives do you encounter, who are in unhappy marriages Do you offer your help to people offer their help to those women, you know, every marriage out there is not a happy marriage, right, you know So do people see these women out and about and say hey you don't have to be with that abusive man you're the other one today inquire about that today as a wife if she's happy with her husband do they try to offer her a way out. In other words, are there bad BDSM type relationships Absolutely. Just as there are bad and unhealthy marriages. You know so that's that's my way of looking at it, You know there's good and bad in everything.
Leyna: Explain this cuckold thing to me, you so you have cuckold parties.
Leyna: What is that?
Guest: Basically what a cuckold party is, is it is a party that is built around themes that are common in the cuckold lifestyle. For example, you know, they can go to regular parties, but they may have to dial down the volume on what they're into, because other people may not be comfortable with it, for example, something common that you see in cuckold and not, not exclusive to cook holding but it's a big part of coding issues male chastity. If a couple goes to a regular party, the husband and might not really make it known that he's in chastity, because other people might not be comfortable with that so they kind of keep that to themselves. Whereas, when I do a party that is specifically for cuckold couples, then I encourage the husbands to show their cage.
Leyna: Wait, wait…Cage??
Guest: The type of male chastity is usually a cage that a man wears around his penis and it locks it up and usually his wife who's referred to as a keyholder she'll have the key somewhere on her person she may wear it on a necklace she may wear it with an anklet or she may just keep it in her purse.
Leyna: Is that how you got the name of your podcast the keys and anklets podcast, have Guest: Actually, that is, that is where the key part came in the anklet, more or less signifies like the hotwife aspect of it because that's, you know it's a common symbol and hotwifing you know the wife wears an anklet maybe with a symbol on it to kind of show that she's available to other men. That is where the keys, came from.
Leyna: I am learning all kinds of new things I’m moving far beyond the pineapple and the black ring. So now anklets are possibly a sign of a hotwife.
Guest: Yeah, I mean it's not I wouldn't say that it's universal, but it is common.
Leyna: So, when you say that you're holding for instance a cuckcold party, so you've got --cuckold couples that go there, and I know many of them, where the man won't do anything won't take part. So who's, who's taking part, Michael? The wife and who?
Guest: And the bulls, you know there are thecouples there, and then there are, you know, single men there who fulfill the role as bulls. You know they interact, they talk, they converse and if there's chemistry, they, they may play together that night, or they may make plans to meet outside of the party, you know, the parties aren't at least my parties, they're not exclusively about people playing for me, they're just a way of bringing like minded people together, and the option to play at the party is there, not everyone takes advantage of it, but most people do.
Leyna: So then what's a hotwife party.
Guest: It's kind of the same thing but but you don't have the same emphasis on cuckold. You know, the emphasis on a hot wife party is more about the couples, interacting with the balls, without the Cuckold element being front and center.
Leyna: Like no humiliation.
Guest: Yeah, no. Right now openly, you know where is it a cuckold party you may have wives openly ordering their husbands around, you know, their husbands being submissive to their wives or their husbands being submissive to their wives. To the untrained eye, you don't really see it at all. Whereas at a cocktail party your wife may say, go get my drink, where there's a hotwife party she may say you know honey, can you please give me a drink, you know, just so did she just appear like she's ordering her husband around, even though that's what they enjoy, and that's their dynamic, they're really careful about not letting them make other people uncomfortable.
Leyna: Right, okay, we need to move on to this BBC party because, you know, I actually was on the BBC last week. Someone messaged me and they were all surprised and what-- I forgot that BBC also stood for something else. What are these BBC parties.
Guest: It's an acronym for for people that are, it's short for big black cock and, you know in this lifestyle of various fetishes, there happens to be this fetish out there for women and couples who enjoy taking black lovers, you know, so a BBC party is a party that is, it is specifically geared towards people who enjoy that particular fetish.
Leyna: Is there like a typical person who does?
Guest: You mean typical as far as from a woman or a couple standpoint?
Guest: Nope, not typical. I've seen ‘em come from all nationalities walks of life, economic status and, you know, you know, white collar versus blue collar I mean there is no typical, I mean it's a little bit of everybody.
Leyna: Okay, now let me ask you about a cuckold parties the. These these cuckold husbands, like if you didn't see them acting it out would you know would you be able to put your finger on it.
Guest: Oh, absolutely not. Nope, you can't. It's not like they have a predisposition or somebody could say well I could pick a cuckold out, you know, it's, it's not like that at all these, you would have no idea that, You know, this is what they enjoy, you know, another common misconception is that men who seek out this type of dynamic are men who
Leyna: Are weak
Guest: Who basically have no choice, like, oh, well if he was single, he wouldn't have any women anyway so he has to kind of give his woman this kind of free rein because that's the only way you could get a woman. That couldn't be further from the truth I could show you pictures of cuckold husbands and, you know, you'd be like, okay, is he a model. You know, I mean,
Leyna: So it could be, it could be a man who in his, you know, quote unquote in regular life is a successful businessman strong willed all that but in the bedroom, he likes something else.
Guest: Absolutely, Absolutely. And that's the case, a lot of times I mean a lot of these, you know, a lot of these husbands are very successful in what they do, you know, they're, you know, they treat their women really well, it's just their brain is wired in a certain way that this is what they enjoy they enjoy making their wife feel like a queen, and a goddess in every sense of the word, they want her to have the best of everything, and that includes sex. And if they feel like that's an area where they may come up short. They don't want her to have to settle, they want her to get the best of everything, you know, and so, you know, cuckold husbands are probably some of the most unselfish men you will ever encounter, because when they say it's all about her. They're not just paying lip service to it they will really do mean it, and they live it every single day where it's all about her.
Leyna: As a, as a bull with like, over 20 years of experience can you kind of give me a list of the different situations you've been in, it's not always just another guy wants to see you with his wife is it?
Guest: Well there are different scenarios because, in my particular world, there's there's some overlap. Every woman who goes to a BBC thing party is not a is not a hotwife, you know, we get to single women as well. The common thread at those parties, is that these women, all enjoy, you know, playing with black men and some women enjoy playing with groups of black men so going to a party is a way for them to, to get to have that and to get to experience that, without going through a lot of hassle to get everybody's in one place. He's able to sculpt the guys out and kind of vet them right there as opposed to trying to set up date after date after date after date after date. So, there are some single women that I played with as well so it's not always in a couple cents sometimes, I played with single women as well.
Leyna: Have you ever been approached by as like a lesbian couple, like two females.
Guest: I've heard stories about it but it's not happened to me personally yet.
Leyna: What is the wildest thing, and I'm sure it's, it's always hard. It's like, you know, it's kind of like karaoke where you know a lot of songs and then when someone puts you on the spot and says, what's the, what's so you want to sing and you can't come up with one. But what is like one of the wildest things that you've done to the lifestyle.
Guest: Oh wow, you are putting me on the spot with that one…
Leyna: Are you straight.
Leyna: Meaning you've never had or won't have interaction sexual interaction with other men?
Guest: I'm mean straight in a sense that I don't find men attractive and there's no sexual desire there now in a cuckold capacity, you know I've had-- the term is, is fluff, you know, for those that don't know I've had, you know, a husband and a wife suck my cock, you know, but in that dynamic, at least how I reconcile that in my brain is, is
Leyna: It's just another mouth.
Guest: I'm just saying it's it's more of a power dynamic, you know what I'm saying, like it's not, there's no sexual energy at all or at least not coming from me, and one of the ways that I kind of joke about it as I tell the wife, if that's going on. I don't care how bad you have to go. Don't get off the bed. Don't get off the bed because once you remove her from the equation, you're not given that power dynamic that energy of the situation is drastically altered, and now it's something that doesn't interest me.
Leyna: Interesting. So really it's something that you're doing to fulfill their fantasies.
Guest: I mean I guess we could look at it that way, like I said, for me it's a it's a power dynamic, it's a, it has to be in front of her so that she can see what he's been, for lack of a better word what he's doing. I don't necessarily say forced to do sometimes it's forcing sometimes even into forcing it's still like a fantasy thing is so great right basically a mindfuck, but it doesn't work the same like that same energy is not the same. If she's not there.
Leyna: Sure. So, um, you've had group sex, year?
Guest: You're like what you've talking like a mass of people like couples and
Leyna: Yeah like a bunch of people.
Guest: Yeah I’ve done that you know, groups, gang bangs, trains, you know.
Leyna: Oh. What’s a train.
Guest: Well, usually what people think of a gang bang--a gang bang can be a woman taking on multiple guys, but it may be in small groups, you might be taking two at a time. Some women are able to take three at a time, whereas the train is more, it's still multiple guys, but it's her taking one guy at a time. Oh, one guy will get in. He's done the next guy, like a train. Next guy will get in, he's the next guy so on and so forth, whereas a gangbang she's, there's usually some kind of multitasking going on.
Leyna: Yes. Okay, so a train is actually different from like a daisy chain.
Guest: Yeah, yeah daisy chain, my understanding is everybody is connected in some way, shape, or form at the same time.
Guest: Yeah, this kind of train is different from, from a daisy chain.
Leyna: Michael, you are just a treasure chest. Let me ask you, so you know you do all this, how would you feel like, if your girlfriend was still into it and wanting to play with other people, would you be okay with that?
Guest: Oh absolutely, I mean when we first started this she was, you know, the way that I feel personally just because of that switch that I have in my brain. To be perfectly honest with you, I couldn't see myself being with a woman who didn't want to play with other people, like that. That's just not what I'm interested in, you know I'm not criticizing other people, you know, but non monogamy is just, it's not for me and it's not just me, it's for my partners as well, you know, so that's just the way that I'm wired.
Leyna: Does your slave have sex with other people.
Guest: Oh absolutely.
Leyna: She does?
Guest: All the time.
Leyna: With your permission?
Guest: Well, yeah, I mean that that but that's our dynamic.
Leyna: Right do you have any fantasies that haven't been fulfilled yet.
Guest: Honestly, no.
Guest: And here's why, you know when you've been doing it as long as I have, and you kind of have that dominant energy about you, you know…
Leyna: You get what you want?
Guest: Well it's not so much that you get what you want is that you're not afraid to ask for what you want, you're not afraid to you're not afraid to speak on it, you know like one of the things that I've often said about dominant people whether it's a dominant man or a dominant woman. I think one of the traits that's extremely important to have is you have to have this photoshoot against a wall and see what sticks mentality. In other words, you can't be afraid to hear the word no. You can't be worried about how it's going to make you look or if somebody is going to judge you for it or, or whatever. And so when you get to the point where you're comfortable, not just thinking like that but carrying yourself like that, you know, you learn that when it was a fantasy. It's just something that you haven't done yet. Okay, well, why haven't you done it. Is it because you haven't asked for it. Is it because you haven't tried to do things to make it happen.
Leyna: So you pretty much have done at all.
Guest: Everything that I've wanted to do, I mean one thing I haven't done yet that I would like to do, I haven't. I'm not a member of a mile high club, I think that would be cool to do.
Leyna: Of all the things—THAT you haven't done?
Guest: The opportunity hasn't, You know, that happens opportunities just hasn't presented itself, right.
Leyna: If we could go back for a moment, when we're talking about cuckolding. Is there a female equivalent to a cuckold husband?
Guest: Um, there is, I mean it's not as common, but it's she's referred to as a Cuckquean.
Leyna: Oh, okay--that I've seen that I always thought that cuckquean was just someone who controlled the cuck.
Guest: That would be the cuckoldress.
Leyna: Oh my gosh, Michael I’ve got to sign up for classes with you. Okay, so the cuckquean is the female equivalent. And what does that look like. It kind of the same thing where she's not allowed to do anything or…
Guest: Well that depends on their dynamic but I guess in a nutshell, she derives pleasure from her partner, being with other women. And sometimes it can take on the same subtle tones of humiliation that can exist, not always but can exist in a cuckold dynamic. Her body is better than yours, her pussy gets wetter than your she fucks me better than you like there are certain women out there who, you know, they enjoy seeing their partner getting that, you know from another from another woman, right in front of them. Right, I mean there are a lot more subtle nuances to it. I’ve known a few-- I look forward to meeting more because it's something that I'm really fascinated about but it's definitely something that I'd like to educate myself more on so that I can speak more, you know from more of a not a position of knowledge based on what I've actually seen in witness versus like hearsay kind of thing.
Leyna: Wow, you've just got all of this information in addition to all that information, you also have these fun parties. Where can people find you?
Guest: Probably the easiest way to find me, is through my website which is keysandanklets.com.
Leyna: And clearly you see yourself doing this, like for the rest of your life.
Guest: In some capacity, you know, I guess, as the saying goes, you know, find a job that you like and you'll never work a day in your life. Well, this is what I found, you know I do my podcast full time. You know I have other projects in the works and you know I see no reason, you know, to stop. I figure if Dr. Ruth can keep it going as long as she did, there's hope for me.
Leyna: And here's hoping Michael continues to do this for as long as he's able thanks for being on the show, Michael. All right, next time on Consenting Adults, two married women meet, and then fall in love with each other so they divorce their husbands get married, and explore the lifestyle, having sex with other men.
Guest: Some people prefer they won't, you know, a penis in each hand and one in the mouth and one in their anus, there’s a name for it… we can shock her with this, what is it called, is it called … airtight, that's it.
Leyna: That's next time on Consenting Adults.
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