Ep 19 Spiritual Swingers

The Spiritual Swingers, Adam and Eve...made beginner mistakes in swinging that might have ended other marriages. It caused them to turn their backs on it, but many years later, the temptation led them back. This time, they were armed with the right tools to make it work.  He still deals with jealousy issues, she still deals with right and wrong but they've found the key to the secret garden...

GuEP 19 – Spiritual Swingers
Transcription:

0:00
Leyna: Everyone, welcome to episode 19 of consenting adults. Before we get started today I want to quickly thank all of our listeners for their engagement on social media, particularly on Twitter. You can find us  @consentadults, always a lot of conversation a lot of it is funny. Some of it is flirty, some of it's kind of dirty, I gotta warn you that, and then some of it is also quite serious, very recently, there's been a conversation on social media, from a man who is having major problems I would call the major problems because his marriage is in danger. After the two of them were experimenting in these kinds of activities. What I'm really liking is seeing the conversation that's happening between him and other people who have been in the lifestyle, are a little bit further along in their journey, offering words of advice, and, and just, you know their own thoughts. So thank you everyone for, for being so honest and, above all else for being kind. Alright, today's guests actually reached out to us on social media after they listened to episode seven called faith and fidelity, where we talked about religion, and how the lifestyle you know fits in with religion, always a hot topic. Anyway, they reached out to us. I talked to them about their journey into the lifestyle, the mistakes they made right off the bat, and if it weren't for how strong their marriage. Is it probably would not have survived what happened.

1:39
We didn't have the communication skills at the time in our marriage to be able to discuss, you know what this was, or what we were feeling or when we have no concept of what the lifestyle or consensual non monogamy or anything like that was. So, what both of us thought was clear communication about boundaries and rules and so forth could not have been further from the truth so it ended up with us, just kind of psychologically and physically separating and I like to describe it as we were cheating with the other person's knowledge, get ready. This is consenting adults. 

(Podcast Show Open)

Leyna: My guest today are a couple who have been together for 27 years married for 21 years. They're from the Midwest, he's 44 She's 43. They go by Adam and Eve and they're known on social media, as the spiritual swingers. So you've been together for 27 years, but you're only 44 and 43 So you were highschool sweethearts right.

3:16
Guest:     Yes. Yeah, and we joke with people that it was an arranged marriage,
Leyna:     and you're still together. Yes, I mean that's pretty awesome because not a lot of people can say that
Guest:     we like to say that we've had like three different marriages but we're lucky enough to have had them all with the same person.

3:35
Leyna:     So together since high school. I'm assuming that before you got married. You didn't have a lot of experience with other people, would that be fair to say,
Guest:     yeah, not, not in the least I think I had two girlfriends before even I started dating.
Right. Yeah. Adam was my first everything I mean everything Oh,

3:59
Leyna:  you got married, at what age
Guest.    22 Right out of college 22 and 23.
Leyna:     If you haven't been with anyone else other than your husband. Right. At some point, did you start wondering what it would be like to be with other people. Was that ever an issue.

4:19
Guest:     Oh yeah, I mean I think that definitely is what contributed to our explorations. But, actually, about four years into our marriage is when we first experimented with non-monogamy and that time did not go well, like at all, but I would say that was the primary motivating factor at that time was just what we'd never been with anyone else. Let's see, let's see what it might be like,

4:44
Leyna:   Okay, so when people say that. Was there anything wrong in your relationship. So, did you feel like you're missing anything, or were you just feeling kind of, you know, adventurous.

4:56
Guest:     Basically, we were kind of at that point, about four to five years into our marriage where I kind of like to say the honeymoon phase kind of worn off like we were settled in neither one of us are going anywhere we we'd been together eight or 10 years at that point. So, we were almost edging into that roommate phase of our relationship and our marriage. So, when Eve started to get interest from a coworker that she was with, you know, it was kind of an ego booster for, and we didn't have the communication skills at the time in our marriage to be able to discuss, you know what this was, or what we were feeling or when we have no concept of what the lifestyle are consensual non monogamy or anything like that was. So, what both of us thought was clear communication about boundaries and rules and so forth could not have been further from the truth so it ended up with us, just kind of psychologically and physically separating and I like to describe it as we were cheating with the other person's knowledge because we both basically put all our efforts into this quote unquote relationship with the opposite sex partner and the other couple, and kind of ignored our relationship so that that's where, when he said it went bad, that's kind of where it went bad. Leyna:  Okay, so
6:21
we're going to go back and find out how you actually got into the lifestyle. What I think is important to point out is that you guys made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, and the lifestyle, and I think that information is really good to let other people know about because you jumped in kind of headfirst not knowing about the lifestyle, and you thought you had clear communication because you know what everyone's telling me is, you can't do this without total complete open communication. Yeah, and you thought you had that right. So let's go back and talk about how you got into the lifestyle I mean it's one thing to get attention from someone and you know start feeling these feelings but how did you guys actually get into it.

7:08
Guest:     About 20 years ago, I would say close to that 15 to 20 years ago. At that time, you know, it was we were living in a different city, and there were, there was a there was a swingers club, there was, it was kind of rumored, and we ended up going to that club, just with a couple of friends that were not this other couple. We just sort of thought it would be fun. We were like, oh let's go check this out we can be voyeurs we can see what actually goes on and does this thing even really exist, it was kind of like just a curiosity, completely, but then what ended up happening was we ran into this other couple that was the coworker of mine who was there on that very night, and so that kind of opened the door
Leyna:     Did you freak out that you met someone.
Guest:     No. Not then.
Leyna:     Oh, you must have been really young,
Guest:     we were, oh, I mean yeah, what were we like 20-25 25, 25 20, something like that so I mean yeah I mean this was many years ago, and no at that time there was really no, we were living in a different city, there wasn't any risk of, you know, family or people like that, finding out. So yeah so that opened the door pretty easily that we knew that they were experienced in some way that we were not. And then from that point on, we just started to inter just kind of hang out with this other couple like we would go to parties that they would host, you know, and then we would kind of go on sort of dates with them I mean that's just kind of a we wouldn't call it that at the time but you know it was just it was just sort of like hanging out.
8:44
Again, we had no concept of consensual non monogamy or lifestyle, and honestly that club that we went to we didn't even really call it a swinger club so that's it was just a sex club, it was like this club that you can go to where people happen to be having sex in the club, and they were different themed rooms for it so we just literally had no concept of it.
Leyna:     Did you do anything that first night at the club.
Guest:      No, not really at all I mean I think we happen to wander in to what like the group room or something and just hang out in the corner against the wall and kind of watch everybody at that time in our relationship I was an extremely jealous person so I was very much, had my guard up the whole time we were at that place I was afraid that every guy in the club was immediately going to be gravitated to Eve and start hitting on her and groping her, so I was in Super watchdog bow that was just, just my level of insecurity with our relationship at the time so it was, it was a really uncomfortable situation for me honestly.

9:45
Leyna:     So you ran into this couple, it was a co worker and you started, you started hanging out with them. How long did it take before there was, you know, some kind of sexual stuff going on with you guys.

9:57
Guest:     I mean I think it was fairly quick, it was within, I mean within a month of us hanging out with them. Yeah. And, and so I guess, and not to fast forward through this part but like we kind of say we have like two lifestyle entries. This was the bad one a long time ago and it kind of gave us a reference point. So I mean, the way it kind of went was you know, the way that swingers do hot tubs, right. Yeah, I think that might have been one of the first as we did anything. And we had a hot tub so we had invited them over one night, and we all got in the hot tub, and you know that that's just like, you know, that's, that's, that's just the easiest way to get anything started and like I said they were experienced somewhat more than us. So, things just kind of happened because they could kind of like, I guess lead the way lead us into it and you know we were willing participants at that point, and a lot of it was girl Girl stuff at first. That was my first no are you bisexual. You know, it's kind of like a bike comfortability thing where, you know I can I can kind of rise to the occasion of whatever is happening around me if there's an attraction there, if that makes sense. I mean I'm not attracted to every woman, and it's not gonna be every situation that we're involved in, but yeah I mean there's some attraction there. And so at that time, you know, she kind of just led me into it, she had done this before at that point that was my first experience ever. With a woman, and she was super flirty and just a fun person so it was easy to kind of get things started.

11:40
Leyna:     Now let me ask Adam because knowing that you were an extremely jealous person, you'll find yourself in a hot tub with another couple. Can you walk me through not only what actually happened but what's happening in your head at this point.

11:55
Guest:     Well, as, as we were going to meet them that evening I specifically remember even I having a conversation where the words that came out of my mouth were, we probably shouldn't do this, or I don't think it would be okay if we would do that. And in my mind the words that were coming out of my mouth where, don't even think about doing this and if he tries to go down on you or to have sex with you, you need to push them away immediately. That was the voice in my head but what came out of my mouth was not that clear cut of a boundary. So, Eve obviously heard that as well, if it happens, I'll try and just let the situation and naturally which was her personality at the time. So of course this, the other guy was a very predatory type so he was immediately going to take advantage of any situation that we were in, so he immediately cross those boundaries that I quote unquote clearly set as we were on our way there. And I just immediately. What do you mean what did you do. Well, he just, he went down on Eve right away, you know, clothes started coming off immediately, it was like I didn't want to jump into it this quickly. I wanted to take my time to get comfortable with the situation. So, in my mind it just clicked it's like well obviously Eve's not caring about what I said so I'm not going to care about this whole situation I'm going to check out. I'm going to focus on the other girl and I'm going to try and ignore everything that's going on there.

13:29
Leyna:     That sounds like a recipe for disaster right there.

13:31
Guest:     Oh, it absolutely was it absolutely was. That's why I described it as cheating with the other person's knowledge because I literally mentally checked out from everything that he was doing to the point where when we played with the other couple subsequent times it was always separate room because I couldn't stand to see her with the other guy it just drove me crazy.

13:49
Leyna:     If yes, did you know that, that your husband was uncomfortable with what was happening at the, at that moment,

13:57
Guest:     at that time, and there was a progression so the hot tub time was not the time that the guy went down on me there was there was like a progression of more and more that was happening, it wasn't like all at once that way. So what I remember about that time in our life was, there was this bad internal back and forth that we each had which was this seems really really wrong and there's a lot of problems with it and we kind of always leave it feeling like somebody got hurt, but then it was always super exciting as well. And there was this tension that both of us I think had. And so what would happen was that would happen like on the weekend. And then we would spend like Monday Tuesday and Wednesday just like really talking and really hashing it out and really like almost saying we're not going to do this anymore, one of us one or the other of us saying we're not going to do this anymore and then by Wednesday that other couple would reach out and say hey you want to get together this weekend. And we'd go. Sure, yeah, sure, That's really how I remember it happening like
15:01
my very much so and it was almost every weekend like that for nine months, and that was, that was another one of the things we did very wrong with this same couple we were entirely too involved in their lives and them entirely too involved in our lives, it was seeing each other too much, And, and they were kind of a dysfunctional couple to begin with, so they were kind of dragging us down into their drama a little bit and that's, that's just what led to saying that it ended badly, I mean not only the mistakes that we made, but they were not a healthy couple to be in the lifestyle to begin with.

15:36
Leyna: looking back, do you think there was danger of being involved with a couple that wasn't healthy, was there a danger that they would kind of pull your relationship down with them. Well, could that happen think

15:52
misery loves company right, and,
Guest:      you know, as you've had other guests on and as anybody who listens to Lifestyle Podcast kind of know that if you, if you go into adding other people into your relationship as a fix for your own, then that never is usually a good, a good combination at all. And it kind of seemed like that's what this other couple was doing. And we were so new at that time, we didn't recognize it or think about it like that. But yeah, I mean as their relationship dissolved, they would try to sort of get us to choose sides in some ways, Adam and I really, that's kind of where we drew the line was we were like, we're seeing too much of like how the sausage is made here like we don't want to know these levels of strife within their relationship and they definitely had strife in their relationship. So that was kind of what caused us there a breakup. We just sort of, we just sort of just grew apart grew apart. Yeah, like when the when the dust cleared I guess we just like whoa what just happened and we're never doing that again and I bet this went on for about a year, I mean, nine months to a year.

17:09
Leyna:     During that time, Adam did you ever work through your jealousy issues,
Guest:     not really. I just kind of tucked them away, and to never be brought out in that situation, and once we worked our way away from this couple and then and then physically moved away. It was just a thing that was put on the backburner that we never really discussed anymore so I kind of took that internally and started acting out on my own over like a 10 to 15 year period of getting too in involved with online porn and things like that and just trying to like acting out in the way trying to get the sexual gratification that the deep down I wanted from that situation, but at the same time I was using it as kind of retribution against EA because I'm like well if she doesn't care about, you know what I was feeling with this situation then I'm just gonna do this stuff and not tell anything to her about it.

18:11
Leyna:    But in actuality it was your fault because you never really vote exactly never sat her down.
Guest:     right it was it was both our faults I didn't clearly say what I was feeling, and she also didn't clearly say what she was feeling so it was a very 50-50 balance of screwing up the situation
18:31
as Adam says all of that now and I've heard, you know, I know that story and I've heard that and we talked about it on our podcasts but he repressed in such a way where he's still acted out sexually without you wanting to talk to me about it and my, my form of regret, repression was to just go super puritanical like that was a mistake, we should have never done it now I'm kind of unclean but I'm lucky that I'm still married. So I'm gonna go ahead and really delve into the role of as the Christian tradition that's what we were raised in and so I really kind of doubled down on that and tried to learn how to be a really good Christian, you know, honestly, that's kind of how it how it went for. Oh like 15 years I mean before we really started talking about all of this again.

19:25
Leyna:     Right, so when you moved away. Did you actually take that long of a break from any lifestyle activity.
Guest:     Yeah.
Leyna:     Wow, that's amazing. And then you got back in how.,
19:39
Guest:   Well that's where the story kind of begins for us. I started kind of this midlife transformation, I guess is the best way I can talk about it now. I love podcasts I love books and things like that. And there was a segment of the people that I were listening to that were deconstructing their faith, they were talking about things like accepting science and accepting new ways of expressions of sexuality, really the true message of of Christ was like peace and self-acceptance and acceptance of others and love, and I wasn't doing that for myself. You know I kind of had a paradigm shift, I guess, as I came through that part of my life. And so, one of them was like self-acceptance, you know like accepting my body, like, not being afraid of it. You know one of the things I come back to quite a bit now is, you know the mind body spirit connection. In I was very heavy in the mind. I really wanted to have faith that there was something spiritual. That's still good and true, but I was very negligent in my acceptance of the body, and the, the importance of the body and feeling things that, you know, like I had been taught were sinful.
Leyna:     Okay so then how did you get back into it, t
Guest:     he very beginning of it was, I just started taking every opportunity I could to just sort of like spend some time naked so if I was getting ready for work. And the kids weren't there, I would just be naked and I would be doing that you know and that probably sounds like normal for most people but that was not my reality at all so I mean that was the very basic thing. Then I started sleeping naked, okay and that was like a big deal for me too, I felt like I was, I mean I probably didn't get a good night's sleep for like three weeks because it just all felt so foreign to me, so strange, you know, and then as I started to sleep naked. And then, I mean I don't think I need to tell anybody else, how that ends, you know, we all know where it goes. And so it was just literally like a new, it was almost like a rebirth in some ways for me.
21:48
Leyna:   You're still not in the lifestyle at that point, how did you get back into it
Guest:    that went on, we went off of that for like a year,
21:55
I feel like, yeah, kind of, but as you got into more of the body positivity stuff and sex positivity, and then you locked on this podcast called sexist fun which was hosted by a lifestyle couple that also was very intellectually heavy as well, which I love, I love learning is very much your thing. Yeah, the way to turn Eve on Twitter like a sex related documentary or something. So she kind of got into that and we happen to both listen to it on a, on a long drive for a vacation one spring where it was just the two of us going to this cabin down in Tennessee. And as I was listening to it, it helped me deal a lot with my feelings about the incidents 15 years prior. Also as I listen to this guy I'm like hey, not every guy that's in the lifestyle is a predatory asshole like this guy from 15 years ago you know they're good genuine guys who were, you know, respectful and they have discussions with the other couples and they pay attention to boundaries and they're good people. And that just kind of led into us saying, Okay, let's maybe try this again, you know, we started talking about personal fantasies, we did this, yes no maybe list where we would check boxes on different sexual activities that we were yes definitely into no not into her maybe if the situation was right at that point I kind of took the ball and ran with it. I kind of surprised her when we got back from the trip and said hey so I was looking up lifestyle side stuff and now we have an account on this swinger dating site. So that's kind of where it all started, we just kind of jumped right back into it and we, we literally set out the second time, with the intent of doing the exact opposite of what we did before we discuss everything as much as possible we're honest about our feelings we don't spend too much time or get too involved with another couple there's a whole list of, of things that we do to make this a healthy situation rather than a mentally traumatic one.

23:54
Leyna:    Can you describe then your first experience, like the second time around

23:58
Guest:     it freaked me out. Honestly, I don't remember about it I remember virtually nothing about it. I was, it was the first time we had been in a room naked with another couples since 15 years prior, and I was just so overwhelmed with everything that was going on. And we had also when we got back into it, there was so many boundaries in place that it was basically the girls could play with each other but there was no cross contact between the guys, and the ladies that were not their spouses. So it was basically the girls were okay to play together and then it was our allow with your own partner from that point on, because that was my comfort level, because I still had to allow my trust in the other guys to be built up again I was, I was so overwhelmed with the situation of just, you know another attractive couple next to us on a bed having sex, I was like, Oh my god I don't know what to do.

24:55
The funny part about that was, we had gotten a hotel room with with this couple, and as we as we left I go, Oh wasn't hot when he told her how sexy she liked her wasn't hot when she said, you know, fuck me harder or whatever they were, they were talkers and so that was really fun for me and I'm just kind of, it was like live for and I'm just watching them interact, this other couple, and I said that to Adam on the way home and he goes, When did, when did they do that, when did he, when did that happen. Whoa, okay so yeah it was interesting but, you know, that was kind of the attitude we took at the beginning and even now still is that, since it's just a compliment to our sex life, it's, it's kind of it's a little bit like a drug. I mean, and if you overdose, you can have a really bad reaction, but just enough adds that excitement and that spark that, you know, then we could go and take, and you know and remember and talk about after and kind of have, you know, an extra little zing to our relationship, and it was enough it was,

26:03
Leyna:    so it's like seasoning. Right, so a little extra seasoning for your food. So did you stick with the boundaries that you set on that second time for quite a while

26:13
Guest:   it was probably through at least the first six months to a year that before we about six months in is when we started to get into soft swap where we were, you know, cross contract and oral with the other partner. You don't really know how you're going to react to something in situations like that until you see it you can scenario scenarios in your mind all day long and tell yourself you're comfortable with whatever, but until you physically see it you're not going to know. And that's, that's one of the most important things for lifestyle couples who are trying to push the boundaries is be aware of that. And also, and obviously discuss that with your spouse, and have some sort of subtle signal that if you're in a situation and you're getting uncomfortable, just looking at your partner in that way that says, I want to get out of this is not going to work, you need to have, you know three squeezes on the knee or pull my leg hair or tap me on the shoulder, whatever it is. So, you know, because nobody wants to have a big uncomfortable situation where you jump up and blow us on, be like, Oh we got to stop I'm freaking out, but you know you can have a natural transition when you're feeling uncomfortable and it'll all be okay, and then you can kind of decompress afterwards and discuss it. And one of the big things for me too and dealing with my jealousy is, I realize that jealousy in and of itself is not an actual emotion. It's a comp, it's kind of an umbrella term that covers other emotions like insecurity, fear, feelings of inadequacy, things like that. So, once you break down a situation where you're feeling quote unquote jealous, and really examine what's going on you determine whether those feelings are justified or imagined. So, any feelings of, you know inadequacy like seeing he with another guy and seeing her enjoying herself I can look at and say, okay this is bothering me. Why does she have a history of going out and doing this stuff without my knowledge, no she only does it when I know about it and I can witness it and be a part of it, so there's no reason for me to be upset about it so push that fear and insecurity aside and enjoy it for what it is.

28:25
Leyna:     We started with you being extremely jealous and really not wanting to see other men pleasing your wife. How have you progressed, where are you now,

28:35
Guest:    it continued to be somewhat uncomfortable for me, up until the point that we tried seeing single guys, because my mentality on that was, if we're with another couple and we're going to go as far as full swap so penetrative sex with another couple. I wanted to be able to see Eve in that situation with the other guy, and be comfortable with it, and not have any scenarios running through my mind about what could be happening. I wanted to see it and know what was going on and have that frame of reference in my mind, but if we're with another couple. I also have to be paying attention to the other female. And I don't want her to feel like well I'm not into you, I'm more into watching my wife with your husband, my feeling on it was, let's find a decent single guy, so that I can be fully involved with a with another guy see everything that's going on. And then I can have that frame of reference in my mind when we're with couples later on so I don't have to be second guessing. So that was kind of my process, we, we found a couple different single guys that were super good respectful quality guys, and that just that helped me immensely exposure therapy. Yeah, wow, self-imposed exposure therapy. Yeah.

29:59
Leyna:   Wow. and so, Eve as his wife then knowing that he has these feelings did that put you in any kind of different mind frame. You know when you're, when you're having sex with someone else.

30:11
Guest:  I'm not gonna call it an issue that's that's an awareness that I have, you know, because I do know that that has been a trigger for him in the past and I never want I don't want to do it at all if it's not going to be fun for everybody. I usually just kind of let he and the other lady, lead what's going on so I watch and I see how Adam and she are vibing and are they are they getting along and do they seem to be flirty or do they seem to be doing more, you know, when it gets to into a play time, you know, I usually let Adam start everything first with her and then I know that okay it's alright to do that much with the husband, and we also
30:53
kind of have a rule between the two of us that the first time we play with a couple. We typically only do soft swap because we want to kind of get a feel for what they enjoy as well. I don't feel like you want to just jump into a sexual situation with another person and just, you know, start doing your own thing with no knowledge of what the other person likes or enjoys so if they're good enough people which I mean they always are. Me, subsequent time then you can go a little further, it's it's always better to regret what you didn't do than to regret what you just did.
Lynea:  How are you meeting people are you going to sex clubs or is it mostly online?

31:32
Guest:     so you know it's interesting because at the beginning it was all online. And that allowed Adam Adam was mostly the online person, and he would we just called it he like would really vet them, like he would ask a lot of. Yeah, it was a lot of that at front and that weeded out people that we weren't going to be a good match for, we usually don't see the same couple more than a couple times a year. Okay, so if you spread that out, even with three or four couples, you know, we have busy normal vanilla lives, so I mean it to Implus with the pandemic, I mean, everything is kind of slower but, right, it's just, it works out. I mean we're able to see different couples maybe, on an average maybe, about once a month, and that's always a different one and it's usually been half a year probably since we'd seen before. So, you know that's kind of how we tend to do it now.

32:29
Leyna:     Are you doing anything now that you know, looking back 15 years ago, there's no way in hell, you would have even been okay with
Guest:      like everything like everything had we met a better couple years ago, there's a chance that we might have been in the lifestyle for, you know 16-18 years at this point. That's always a possibility open to it, or at least open to it throughout that time but I think the fact that everything that could go wrong did go wrong that first time, I think, as, as much as it seemed like a mistake it's definitely contributed to us being in a better place and doing things better this time around.

33:15
Leyna:     I know your names are not out of pocket. I don't know where you're from, you don't even want to talk about your occupation, so you want to be very private about this, which I completely understand. Do you think you're in this for good now.

33:31
Guest:     I don't see why not. I mean, honestly, if there was anything that would come up between either one of us that says, Let's not do this anymore than we would not do this anymore. But I can't say that we would ever 100% completely cut ties with every bit of it because we've, we've gained so many close friendships with people because of the lifestyle that even if we quit having playtime and physical interactions with other couples I think we would still hang out with them and talk to him.
34:03
Yeah, there's been so much good that's come into our lives from it, that I think we'd always, we'd always make space for it even if we decided it wasn't for us. We can't condemn it, because we know so much good comes from it. You know it's that kind of acceptance of things that you know others do that isn't your thing, but that's the whole. That's the whole point of living life we need to see things from others perspective and not condemn, when, When you can see good comes from it.

34:32
Leyna:      Exactly and that's why this podcast exists so thank you so much, Adam and Eve for talking to us. You can find them on social media, they're the spiritual swingers. Okay, next time on Consenting Adults. Did you know what a tikiphile is, I didn't. Okay but I talked to one, and he's the type of guy who will try anything once. And apparently he has.
Guest:      I'm very heterosexual I've never, I always tell people, like if I wanted to play with a penis I've got one, it's right there and my arms are exactly exactly right length, you know, I don't I don't I don't need another one I'm good, you know, but it doesn't mean I haven't you know haven't haven't experimented with things I mean again, I feel like I've gotten to the age where I know what I like. 
Leyna:      That's next time on Consenting Adults.