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The male version of a unicorn is called a bull; a man who will have sex with a couple or a hotwife. Chris talks to Leyna about what bi-friendly means for men in the lifestyle and how he and his wife have a completely open marriage.
EP 15 – The Bull
Leyna: Welcome back everyone, so it has been a week since our last episode dropped but it feels like it's been a year. We're almost a week out from election 2020 And it's been a stressful time on social media has been very volatile, you know, lots of high emotions you've got people who are elated, and then you've got people who are disappointed, upset, angry, hurt, and clearly it won't be the last that we hear of that but let's not talk about that, let's talk about today's guest on Consenting Adults, he's very much the intellectual type in fact he taught me some terms I didn't know about. And he's married, has probably the most open marriage I've ever heard of, and says, age has only made sex that much better for him.
Guest: I've done threesomes before in university. They're much more fun at 40 something and silver than they were 20 something and drunk. Get ready. This is Consenting Adults.
(Podcast Show Open)
Leyna: Some of you may know that the single female in the lifestyle is often referred to as a unicorn. Very rare everyone's looking for one hard to find. Apparently the male equivalent is known as a bull and gosh darn it, we've got a bull in the china shop today. He is just around the corner from turning 50 Chris, I'm not sure how to introduce or describe you. So first, let me read your Tinder dating profile. It says, I'm the atheist polyamorous liberal leaning sex positive by friendly erotic novelists and sex blogger your mother forgot to warn you about mostly as she passed out on reading the word atheist. So, I've heard a lot about unicorns and about all the other stuff. I have not heard about a bowl. Now, I know that you know the single females are, you know, considered rare in the lifestyle, there's got to be a ton of single males in the lifestyle, are they all known as bulls.
Guest: Well there's absolutely it's kind of single males in the lifestyle, the terminology is usually for a gentleman, whether single or not is really not the issue there, but when he joins a couple. Okay, as you say the equivalent of a unicorn but going the other way.
Leyna: Alright, so then when you describe yourself as by friendly, What does that mean?
Guest: Bi friendly means I'm not bisexual, but on the other hand I'm not turned off if things kind of flow that way. I'm not looking for that but I'm open to possibilities if things go that way and it's all consensual and everybody's happy with where it goes. I'm very comfortable when it goes towards bi sexual a little bit, because obviously there are a lot of men who are in the lifestyle but they just do not want any sexual interaction with other males right which is part of the demand on unicorns because they don't want other guys there at all, they're not comfortable with other guys period. Yeah, right.
Leyna: Okay, but you don't consider yourself bisexual?
Guest: No, No, I don't go off looking for guys myself, I'm not interested in that.
Leyna: How far do you take that so if you're bi friendly How far have you taken that?
Guest: I have, actually I have gone with a guy on my own once I have talked to guy as it were, so I can say I've done it, I've tried it, I know it's not my thing. So I have gone that far. Yes. Generally speaking I keep that as oral as the limit.
Leyna: All right, so you're almost 50, I mean it is around the corner, you're single, what is your marital history, have you ever been married?
Guest: Okay first off I'm not single. No, I'm in a poly marriage,
Leyna: that's why you're on a dating website.
Guest: Yeah, one of my other profiles, it says sometimes I'm mistakes sometimes on the ball, and other times, we're Paulie, my wife has other people that she sees so it's also completely separate at times.
Leyna: Wow, you guys got a lot going on.
Guest: Yeah, well we've been open since the very beginning, eight years ago, our third date was actually one of Toronto's swingers clubs, so we were very open right at the beginning, both from traditional marriages privately prior to that, and we realized neither of us worked for that before you got married to your current wife.
Leyna: Had you taken part in lifestyle type activities?
Guest: Yes, actually I was involved for a few couples. Prior to that, and how did that start that started because of my writing actually my sex blogging I actually had some local readers on Twitter and one just around the corner here kind of reached out to me and invited me along and I got involved with her and her husband for a while. And that's something that you hadn't done before, not at that level, no I have joked that I've done threesomes before in university. They're much more fun at 40 something and silver than they were at 20 something and drunk. It's it's a very different it's a maturity thing it's much more enjoyable when you actually can pay attention to what's going on as opposed to having to numb yourself because you don't know how you're going to react.
Leyna: Right, that's one of the focuses of my show is that it's people 40 And over, who are living this incredibly active private life that a lot of people don't know about. And whether it's maturity experience, whatever it is, I think they're able to enjoy it more, express themselves more explore more.
Guest: Yeah, I think so I think the maturity helps and the realization, this is something that I don't know that even people my own age, generally realize is that you don't own the other person in the relationship. They don't belong to you, and you have to allow them that exploration as they need so that once you realize you don't own them suddenly the jealousy goes away, you realize that you also can explore as long as you're doing it consensually as long as you're doing it honestly it's all good.
Leyna: Now, had your wife, been involved in other activities before she married you?
Guest: No actually, in her case she had dumped.
Leyna: She was a monogamous woman who then got together with you, generally vanilla.
Leyna: And when did you start to dilute this vanilla?
Guest: Well, as I say, for us it was right away she read what I was writing already. Prior to this I was solo Poly and doing that for probably five, seven years, so she had read what I've already been doing and that was intrigued. And so we started from there.
Leyna: And so you've been together, eight years?
Guest: Eight years together seven years married yeah.
Leyna: And what are the different arrangements, or activities that you both have participated in in those eight years, whether together or separately?
Guest: She's been with couples. She's been with guys and girls together we've been in swinging situations. And I've had dates on my own with mentioned once that I did try it with a guy. And but generally I mean with women like online my persona actually goes against this but I'm more of an introverted, so I don't go out very often, but any opportunity that either one of us is comfortable with, as long as we talk about it, we're good to go.
Some people may ask why be married then if you're going to live as if you're single, where you have the freedom to be with other people.
This is where it gets a little dicey with polyamory is there's a lot of people who don't like what they call the relationship escalator, they don't like primary relationships, but when you come into this as a married couple that is a primary relationship, your finances are interlinked your family's interlinked with children or parents or whatever. And so there is a primary relationship here that we both come back to. And I have often said in regards to her being off on her own with another guy I have to be her wingman not her keeper. So it's the best relationship that I've had, and I can't keep her I can't keep her is not the right term, but I don't want her to feel strapped in here and not to have the freedom to go on but she's still my wife, she's still the love of my life she's still, that's not going to change what other guys are what she does with other people, it doesn't matter how old is your wife 46 Do you guys have children, not from our previous relationships yeah we're a blended group. I say, Are you pretty much open with your family and friends. Mostly my parents, not so much I'm a recovering Irish Catholic it's a constant battle oh boy and it's a little one of the few things I haven't talked to my parents about, they know about me being atheist but they don't know about this, but even our kids because they're all teenagers plus now, and we were worried about them stumbling onto my writing, they're aware of what we have our open relationship but that's all they're aware, they don't need to do anything else they don't need details by any stretch.
How often would you say you guys participate in these kind of activities lifestyle activities.
Since COVID started not at all. Yeah, I know that she had a regular boyfriend for about a year. So she was with him a couple times a week. And that ended recently unfortunately but it was regular and prior to that, we might have been at our local swingers club once a month, maybe the one closest to us is more of a nightclub thing and I'm not a night guy so we're not, that's not our realm so we don't go very often, but sometimes just to have a few drinks and just enjoy the on the answers, then the live porn as I joke about,
can you explain some of the terminology to me for instance I hear stag and Vixen and bull and I'm not sure what's what or who's who.
Okay, a vixen hot wife, same thing. It's a married woman who sees other men, and whether it's with her husband or without her husband, depends on who you're talking to. Sometimes she goes off on her own. Sometimes the husband goes with her sometimes, it's a three whatever threesome. The stag is the husband, and then the ball is the third the second guy, the third person,
I say, okay, and would you say that there are different types of bowls.
No, absolutely, but that all different types of people, you'd have to know each personality each mixture of chemistry is going to change the situation. And it's not even so much about the bowl as it is just about personalities, the stereotype tends to be well endowed young and big Laura athletic that type of thing, whereas the term just started as simply a second guy. So it's one of these terms that has become something other than where it intended. and now it gets involved with the cuckold situation where there's also this theory that bulls sometimes humiliate the steak and that's really not what it should be. But for some, it is. So why some people are into that right, some people are into that absolutely yeah yeah cuckolding which is another word that really didn't start out that way and it's become about the humiliation. There's a lot of words attached to this, that all changed their connotations over the years,
right, so what did coke holding originally what do you think coke holding meant,
originally it just meant that someone was watching their partner with someone else, it was just that was it. Oh I see, and then it became about the humiliation people assume oh he must be humiliated but now they've had to introduce a new term. And I think it was Dan Sapp I think it was Dan Savage, who coined this for this lifestyle of conversion, which is joy we get from seeing other people get joy.
You and your wife also participate in activities together right with other couples or other people or whatever. Absolutely. Yeah. And you're also polyamorous, meaning it's not just sex. Same with your wife. Right,
yeah, yeah, more for mom for her so far for me, it hasn't gone that far.
Do you think it requires a different kind of man in a couple to want to bring us third, or actually a second man into the equation, because I've mostly heard of just, you know, the typical male who, you know, wants to see his wife with another girl. You don't hear too much about the man who wants to bring in another man.
Yeah and I think it goes back to me again. First off, being the buy friendly aspect, I'm cool with that. So if the beams cross streams cross whatever the Ghostbusters references. It's, I think one thing that a lot of men are, I mean they're they're afraid of the jealousy aspect, number one, so they're afraid that this other guy is going to come in and take her from me, which is, if you talk with respect talk with honesty with your partner if you treat them with absolute you know what you have freedom to do whatever, as long as we discuss and I have the same rights, then you're not going to lose them to anybody. This is still again for us a primary relationship. So for many, it shows an insecurity to me that they're afraid they're going to lose their partner to another guy is part of it. And then the other part is, some of them are again afraid of that Homo erotic aspect of their two fearful of they're finding out that they're not as straight as they thought they were, which is a shame because what does it matter,
society accepts more easily two women being sexually involved with each other, and some would even say, Oh, they're, they're not lesbian, right, but they will say if two guys do anything with each other they are gay no way around it. It's like a hard rule.
Yeah, and I don't agree with that but yeah, you're absolutely right. People do say that right I think that's a silly notion.
Right, so you don't you don't believe that you're probably one of the few men who doesn't feel that way.
No, I don't I mean you can perform gay activities that doesn't make you gay. You know you, it's an activity is what you're doing, it's not necessarily a mindset.
I have always wondered and asked, Because every man I've ever talked to has felt that if you are willing to do anything sexual with another man you are gay. I've always asked them, but you would think that a man would know what feels best. Like, you know what I mean like Aren't you curious as to, you know, what oral sex feels like from a man rather than a woman because he has a penis. He knows what feels good. And the reaction has always been the same that they can't get it out of their head that it's a guy. And to them, that's gay. Yeah, yeah, to you is it purely just a sexual activity that there's no,
there's no like emotion to it right in that sense. Absolutely, yeah, for me it's actually been a way to realize, better, what I need when I done this with other people I realized, or to understand my own needs better. What do you mean, whether it's oral or hand or whatever when I see how the other guy reacts I start to understand my own reactions a little better. I learned more about myself. So for me it's a learning exercise, so it's it's actually been very helpful. Even though I don't do it very often. I gotta ask Are men better at giving oral to other men. No, they're not, no. I think if you can do it to yourself. And I know some of them do and that's a little awkward, the way they do that, but if you could do it to yourself that would be different, because then you'd know what you need, then you would perform that way on other guys,
again it comes down to each person is different, like not every woman likes it the same way just like not every man likes it the same way.
That's right. That's right and whether I mean lips are gender specific. And by gender and specific that's not going to make a difference. It's more or less. Yeah. Well, that's true. That's true.
Because this seems like it's just like this is part of who you are. Do you feel like you could ever live a monogamous life
anymore. Not fully anymore. And I mean, as we get older that may get that may change yet. I think you tend to look a lot less as you get older, but I, at the moment I can't see that because it's just I've been through that and it didn't work for me, that was just the traditional expected relationship and it just had no it could not work for me, it was the farthest from what I needed. And now with the way our situation is unfolded here and the freedom to explore that we've created between us. I can't see us ever going back to that completely.
So that's you, but what are your thoughts on monogamy and humans. Do you think that we were made to be monogamous.
No I don't, I don't think we were I think this is, I mean I know the history, sometimes they talk about goes back to land transfers and arranged marriages and things like that, which is where monogamy kind of came out of, and then religion took it. So I look at that and say, I don't think we were meant to be that way. And then we've learned to be that way. There's a lot of things that, that we've been taught that just aren't the way things are. It says a lot of history that have been colored by the people who have had the control of the history books as it were and I don't mean that as a conspiracy theory type thing. I just mean as they say that history is written by the victors and the people who have like the leaders of religion, they've written a lot of things that really aren't the way they are, but this is how people believe they are because of what they've been taught and what they've been told and traditions and it becomes too comfortable. So rather than fight the system you just go along with that. So this is, I mean polyamory has been around for centuries, it's just now becoming more front and center just as people are starting to question more lately we've been feeling a lot more freedom I think to question, little things like this and realize that not all has to be the way everybody is, we don't have dictated to us how to live our lives.
Can you talk about the different types of people, you end up playing with or in relationships with who are in the lifestyle whether it's polyamory or swinging or you know whatever. Because I think a lot of people still look at people in the non monogamous lifestyle as, you know, the weirdos, the, you know, They don't seem normal to most other people. What kind of people are we talking about
what's everybody from every walk of life, all types we've run into we've run into lawyers we've run into sanitation engineers we've run into teachers we've. It's people who mostly are very discreet because they don't want to appear out of the norm, who are normal. And this is just something different that they do.
Since you have been writing about this and living this for some time. Do you see a change a shift in society where non monogamy isn't so looked down upon, has that gotten better. Do you see it getting better.
It is getting better, I think it's going to be a long time before it's not looked down upon. One advantage where we are and I've voiced this many times is that Toronto here to Montreal I think is, I think it's the North American capital for the alternative lifestyle because of our more liberal politics up here, we're much more accepting of things I've heard as many as 10% may live a poly ish polyamorous ish life of some sort but I think it's a little higher here, because it's much more accepted in Canada we went down to New York one time and found the swinging scene there was a bit frightening. It was actually rather shocking because New York City you think is a fairly liberal city by American standards, but compared to Toronto here it's very clean, it's very classy it's relatively out the open I mean it's not the open, showing off but it's available to be found easily. New York we found that not so much that it's kind of the freedom to be seen. Interesting, so it's still looked down upon very much, it has gotten better, but it's going to be a long time before we get to that point where it's seen as equal as with any movement of any
sort. Yeah. Now when you talk about you know being more liberal minded and such. That's not to say that there aren't very conservative people in this lifestyle right. Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely, yeah. I don't know that many conservatives are quite as open as we are about. That might be the only thing I might differentiate there. I think there, they tend to prefer not that not to fill off that aspect of their lifestyle.
This disrupter in Toronto. Do you look at Americans differently and our viewpoints about sex. Just like how Europeans I like I talked to Europeans and they think they think Americans are pretty uptight about it. You are.
And I think that having grown up in Colorado, actually I'm originally Canadian but I did grow up in Colorado. I have been down there and spent some time down there, but compared to watching from up here. And I say that, Knowing I think it was Robin Williams used to call us that apartment above a meth lab. And it's really an interesting experiment going on watching how there's a lot of morality play going on that we don't experience up here in the same way. There's a lot of shaming that goes on, there's a lot of so it is very. Yeah, it's very squashed down they're very hard to, I guess, get the point out that we can that this doesn't going to affect you so why does it matter to you what I'm doing that type of thing.
Have you ever been approached by two women, like a woman couple, who want to bring you in. I have not actually no, I've seen it but no I haven't. No. So it's normally male female couple wanting to bring you in.
Usually Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I have had actually two males do that once, but I wasn't there again, that wasn't my thing so it's not really. Yeah.
Is there a turn on for either by or gay men to bring on a man who is not gay. For this kind of activity. Is there a turn on there somewhere, like trying to turn them or trying to whatever
I not for me, I can't answer for anybody else. Of course, I, I could see some being that but that to me is a bit of a backhanded way, because it's trying to control someone else that I hate that. I don't want to control other people that want to. So I would imagine people could but it's just not something that I could fathom myself, no.
Right. Are there any kinks or fetishes or other stuff that you're into generally no, not specifically really so you're just like a regular sex kind of guy just happened to be okay with.
I write a lot about BDSM actually and I've enough I don't do it, but I've been told I'm very I have a little bit of a little bit of a dommage to me even though I'm not really, by any stretch at all, but I've been told that I have a lot of controlling in a good way aspects there,
there, there's no sexual fantasy that you haven't fulfilled for yourself yet.
Really, no, no, no, we've been able to consensually explore everything within reach. You are living the life, man. Yeah, yeah, right. And I mean Mine aren't too wild. So that kind of helps. I know there's some really wild ones out there and it raises your eyebrows a bit but again your kink isn't miking so it's how it goes.
Let's talk a little bit about aging. So you are about to turn 50 Still very sexually active. Can you talk about the changes that that you've gone through, you know, I mean, remember when we were younger we thought people at 40 were over the hill and old.
Well, yeah. You don't buy into that right well being, we have a 15 year old here at home who told us that we don't understand how kids are yeah I know exactly what you mean. So I think that in my time in this I mean, when I was 20 I was still Catholic I was still um this is when I was single I was in university I did the three something but I was the first discovery that you know what things are not quite as I've been taught, so I knew that there was going to be changes coming forward for me and I moved on from there. But I was still I myself was very conservative thinking, I thought I actually voted for the Conservative Party of Canada and I sometimes shake my head and wonder what the heck was I doing. I didn't realize what the difference was in my thinking, compared to what, what I thought it should have been. And what my thinking was, was much more liberal and it's come out now where the change to me is that I find it much more acceptable show that I find it much more acceptable that my last workplace they knew what I was taking care of because it didn't affect anything wasn't like I flaunted it with anybody, nobody had to know about it, unless they want to talk about it and I was cool to talk about. And whereas 20 I would not have been so for me it's the openness that has changed over the years.
So you are freer to be authentic.
Yeah, yeah, and because of my openness online I'm. Unlike many I don't have the require requirement for discretion. In the same way. I have no problem with being discreet for people that's not a big deal to me that, but I don't need it the way others do.
At what point did you become atheist. Did it have anything to do with this other life, sexually, that, that you were drawn to.
Actually yeah it was the other way around that atheism came first, I had a problem with a priest one time, years and years ago asked a question and got a lecture that just didn't work for me so I started doing research and that was pretty much the beginning of the end. I did a university thesis on Douglas Adams and his Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, that dragged me towards because he was very much an atheist. So I have him and George Carlin that I blame for a lot of this. And then I was introduced, and this is where the other aspect the Paul E M comes in, is that I was introduced to a scientist Dawkins, who he wrote a book called The God Delusion. And at one point he discusses how people can love, two books. One neither better or worse than the other, different reasons for liking, doesn't matter, they could both be the same genre even they could both be the same subject he just different reasons, but at the same level, like different foods, doesn't mean a one day I want bacon. The next day I want pepperoni, whatever, it's still. And then he points at your kids, and he says, Do you love one of them less. So he says, Why is it that you can only romantically love one person who decided this, and that kind of put that light bulb over my head.
And do you think the confines of religion is preventing some people from discovering this world.
Absolutely, yeah, there's a lot of, and this is again coming as, from my experience as an Irish Catholic there's a lot of guilt, there's a lot of looking over your shoulder with a neighbor's thing, and it gets to a point for me where I'm past that now. And a lot of people, I don't think ever get past that. That's the problem is we've been taught that's important and it's really not. It's not important what the other people think of us it's not important what they're doing, if it doesn't concern us. Right. I mean, yeah, that's always been my thing about, I mean, judging women lives. Many do is my theory is, you know she can sleep with whoever she wants however many she wants as long as she's consenting and it's her business, it's not mine. You know, and people judge, women and men that way but men not so badly. Unfortunately, and I mean unfortunately that is not equal, not that it's unfair.
Right, right. Yeah, so that they still judge men when they're willing to be with other men.
That's true. That is true. Yes, absolutely. And that way again same thing that's really not my place to judge anybody it should not be anybody's place to judge me, and religion does tend to hamstring you on that because they teach you, there's certain morality that you have to live by, and I'm talking about the Christian religion I can't speak too much else on that but they do teach you that there are certain things you have to live by whether or not. Other people are involved, and that is where your limitations get questioned then, you know if you have an impure thought. Apparently that's a sin according to the Catholic Church, even though you can't control stray thoughts, they're going to happen, whether you act on them or another, that's a different story but. And if you even if you do act on them. If it's not hurting anybody else if it's not dishonest if it's not unethical. What's the difference. So,
any last words on this lifestyle, being non monogamous consent growing older, whether you're happy free anything.
Well my advice to anybody coming into this is always first off, honesty, and communication and communication and communication and after you're done that talk more. You have to keep that line open between you and I, whether your primary partner, whether it's multiple partners, whatever you have to keep talking as Pink Floyd used to say, you have to keep that line of communication going or else, then there's going to be problems. I mean there's a lot of positive to it of course but there are a lot, there are some negatives that come in that nobody talks about
like what, well, for example,
I use this example to someone else earlier about metal, which for those who don't know, that's when my wife has a boyfriend. He's my metal. And when you have a metamour who comes into the system into the system into the dynamic, who maybe isn't as honest as we'd like. And we don't know that. And maybe isn't actually as interested in this as we thought he wasn't doesn't share that, there can be problems. It's hard to find people at the same level. When you're introducing them into a new dynamic it's hard to you can't always do that. And it's the honesty, you have to find honest people and that's not easy. That's the problem with a lot of this.
Would you say for, for the most part people in the lifestyle, are good people, more honest people than than what you would normally find, is there a code that you don't out people, is there a code that your
honor outing people would say it's, we've always we've run into people that we work with. And it's always kind of a sense of mutual destruction if you work out anybody, so it just doesn't make any sense. But one thing and this is something I talked to my doctor about one time, and I have no stats to back this up, but my impression is for example on STDs. As a percentage, I believe those in the lifestyle probably have lower STDs than those outside because we're honest about it where we make sure that we're protecting. We're open about protecting ourselves and that to me is a sign that there is more honesty in this
kind of like sex workers who, yeah, you know, right, you think of them as dirty but wait a second, they get tested, they use, you know, protection and in some parts of the world is regulated right. Yeah,
and that's I mean, most people, I'm aware of, in this get tested a couple times a year, I know I do. So it's just to make sure it doesn't hurt. It doesn't take anything away, it just it's part of the deal.
So, when it doesn't work out, it can be bad, especially if you're trying to repair something in your relationship, but when it does work out. Yeah,
it's just it's very freeing. It's very joyful. And actually one other thing I do tell couples who are coming into this is that if you're doing this to repair your relationship don't. This is not how you do that, you have to come into this strong, you have to come into this together. If you're already in a primary relationship. If you're coming into repair it, you're just going to amplify problems, but that's strength as you learn more about each other, you learn by watching by paying more attention, and by talking by communicating more. So yeah, it's it's a very enjoyable experience once you get.
Leyna: Chris, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with us. That's when it works out. Next time on Consenting Adults when it doesn't work out, we talked to a woman who's been in a long marriage, that's probably lacking many things other than enough sex, and that leads to poor body image, infidelity, including an affair with a very well known singer.
Guest: I was so excited when you call me or text me, it was the wife didn't know about. You were like school girl all over again right oh yeah, he loved hearing about what my favorite songs were, and I'd read his book. I read about his life and he loved it that I was so interested in him, he said, you know, and vice versa.
Leyna: That's next time on consent Adults.
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