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Welcome to the first episode of Consenting Adults!
In this episode of Consenting Adults, host Leyna Nguyen speaks to “Mike” about his introduction to sex clubs with his wife, “Wendy” after accidentally stumbling across one of the biggest sex clubs in the country while heading over to an animal shelter to adopt a pet. They get into the details of how this new lifestyle works for them, different rules, and what it's like.
EP 1 – Mike and Wendy, A married couple's introduction to sex clubs
Leyna: Welcome to the first episode of consenting adults. I'm your host, Leyna Nguyen. And I'm guessing you're here for one of two reasons. One, you know me, and you're just being awesome and supportive. Thank you, or two, you find the subject matter a bit intriguing. Now those of you who know me from my work as a journalist might be shocked that I'm talking about things on this show like open marriages, swingers, polyamory, BDSM, and honestly, sometimes I'm shocked myself but let me tell you how I got here. Some of you know that I started another podcast called Leyna Nguyen Unscripted, after I quit TV news, you know like after 26 years it was finally fun to have an outlet to talk like a regular human being in my own words and asking the questions I wanted to ask. Months after I started that podcast I decided to sell my home of 10 years, look for a new home. I actually said yes to getting remarried, and I turned 50! So lots of life changes. And I broke down that studio and I put the brakes on that podcast but during the conversation with a friend about, you know, growing older and how I don't feel 50 And I'm actually enjoying life so much more than I ever have before. My friend confided in me that she and her husband are swingers. So after picking my jaw up off the floor, I started asking questions, and then I started asking around and you know what I found. You are not over the hill when you hit 40. In fact, you probably be shocked to hear about the private lives of people we once thought of is old, you know, I mean, and they are older, I mean we are older, yes, but we're also wiser. We are happier, we're more confident, and we are sexier. And I also found that the things I thought were so weird.
The wife swapping, or multiple partners, and the world of kink, you know, the stuff I'd only read stories on weren’t so weird. I'm amazed at who's doing it and all the different ways that people are expressing their sexuality, and how much more they're enjoying it, you know who am I to judge No one right? And I don't, I mean I may not agree with everything and may not all be for me, but I love hearing people talk about being content and happy in their own skin. And finally, and I know this is a cliche, but finally living their best life. It's not without trials and tribulations, I mean it's a journey, some people have been shunned by their families, many are still hiding in the shadows, but trust you, me, the people next door, your doctor, that lawyer you hate to pay, your kids teachers. Those are the type of people who are into these alternative, non monogamous lifestyles, and they are not shy about sharing their stories with me as consenting adults.
(Podcast Show Open)
Leyna: Today we're talking with Mike, not his real name for the things he's about to reveal we want to keep him anonymous so Mike is 49 married to Wendy who's 48, he works for the government, she's in law enforcement, both married once before both bringing one adult son into this relationship, you've been married 15 years. Does it feel like 15 years?
Guest: Not at all. No, honest to God, it doesn't. We keep saying that, how is it that we've been together this long?
Leyna: So it surprises you that you've made it this long?
Leyna: How long were you married the first time?
Guest: About three and a half years.
Leyna: Okay. And how about her?
Guest: About the same.
Leyna: How did you guys meet?
Guest: We met online.
Leyna: Was it love at first sight?
Guest: When I met her absolutely.
Leyna: Like you really think and believe that like you saw this woman and you thought what?
Guest: That's it.
Leyna: This is the one.
Leyna: Did she think that way about you?
Guest: I have no idea. I doubt it. I think I just grew on her.
Leyna: Hey. Yeah, that happens with men and women actually. Kidding aside, I think it does
happen with men and women and that I feel just in talking with friends that women can learn to love somebody, right, which is why when you get married, and you get old and ugly and you gain weight and all you lose your hair all that stuff, women, I think more easily look past all that stuff or like don't even really see it, you know, whereas you hear people joking all the time that you know women start gaining weight…
Guest: Let me stop you, they can get past it with their husband…
Leyna: But not other people…
Guest: When they're looking in the mirror.
Guest: Nothing gets past that.
Leyna: So very critical of themselves.
Leyna: That's probably a very female thing, don't you think?
Leyna: Adversely men, And I'm of course generalizing, can see when their women start putting
on weight, or whatever, right? So would you say that it's really true love when that kind of stuff
doesn't matter to you anymore?
Guest: Yes. To be honest, if she puts on weight, I don't see it, I see the same person that I saw
15 years ago. And, you know, she's still as sexy naked now as she was then, but if you ask her.
She's like, Oh, hell no, no,
Leyna: I get that because, for instance like I'll go on a vacation and I'll feel like I need to do no carbs for, you know, a month before I go, and people are like, What? Are you crazy? And it's not for anybody else. It's for myself is for how I see myself and just like your wife, you know, you think she's hot. She may not be feeling hot but that's it's has nothing to do with you. Right, so it's all her. Interestingly enough, as critical as women can be of themselves, it's, I find it very interesting that you guys are swingers. Is that what you call yourselves? I guess there are different categories.
Guest: Swingers, it just brings up images of…
Leyna: Bad stuff you've seen
Guest: Mr. Furley from Three's Company that you know the medallions and the no.
Leyna: Is it an open marriage, or are you guys swinging Is there a difference?
Guest: I guess technically it's swinging, it's referred to more now as being in the lifestyle can't
just say hey we're swingers. But if somebody overhears a conversation on lifestyle, they don't
know they know what we’re talking about.
Leyna: Okay, what does it mean, what do you engage in?
Guest: It's kind of up to each couple to determine what they're comfortable with and what they
what they like to do. With us, it started slow, we would go to a club and have sex by ourselves,
while other people are doing the same.
Leyna: First of all, wait a second, how do you just find a club where this happens, I mean, you
must have done a lot of research.
Guest: I did absolutely no research, I found it on accident. It starts about 10 years ago, my kids
at the time they were really wanting a pet, and we finally gave in and said, Okay, we'll go the
animal shelter. Look for a pet. Yeah, stick with me here. So, we get in the car. I
don't quite know exactly where the shelter is, but I have an idea we pull up to this building, but
as I'm getting closer I realize this isn't it. This is something else.
Leyna: How did you realize that what did you see?
Guest: There was a sign on the side of the building…
Leyna: And what did it say?
Guest: It said “Freedom Acres”
Leyna: Freedom Acres
Guest: And so we stopped right there, we're going to Google this when we get home.
Leyna: So you didn't go inside?
Guest: No we turned around when there was no cars there was middle of the day, and that
evening we got online and started Googling and lo and behold, come to find out one of the
biggest sex clubs in the country is about three miles from our house and we never knew it, we
didn't know that lifestyle existed still
Leyna: When you say still, were you into this before you met your current wife?
Guest: No, I'm referring to hearing about swinging back in the 70s, and that kind of stuff
Leyna: You know, stuff we all hear about and joke about…
Guest: I had no personal experience
Leyna: Right, right right. Was your wife into this lifestyle before she met you?
Guest: Not at all. No we…
Leyna: Not that you know of?
Guest: No, no, cuz, one thing this lifestyle will get you to do is communicate better with your
spouse, when we research this place. Wow, this place is crazy. There's pictures of the play
rooms and the bar area, you know, and we started wondering what's it like in there what goes
on on Friday nights, it became an interest where we were kind of starting to do our research on
Leyna:What is that conversation like, like most people who aren't in the lifestyle, I'm not sure
that they can imagine starting or having a conversation like that with their spouse, like, Hey
honey, you think you want to swing?
Guest: Most of it would happen when we're in bed, we're having sex, and the topic would come
up in the middle of sex
Leyna: So dirty talk so sex talk.
Guest: Yeah, it started off as dirty talk. Oh, what if somebody was watching us or what if
someone joined in, you know…
Leyna: But a lot of people do that kind of talk and it's just that…
Guest: It's just talk right.
Leyna: At what point did you realize it was more than talk,
Guest: We took an anniversary trip to Reno Tahoe area, we had time to kill, so she thought, let's go to a strip club watch a get a lap dance, you know whatever Reno in the middle of like 11am
Leyna: What else is there to do?
Guest: Literally the only people in the place. She wanted a lap dance for her.
Leyna: That's a turn on for a lot of guys right?
Guest: Yeah because strip clubs do nothing for me it's, it's entertaining for about the first half
hour and then…
Leyna: But the thought of your woman with another woman, it does something for a lot of
Guest: Yes, a man's ultimate fantasy at one point, to have two women or to see his wife with another woman…
Leyna: But it doesn't always work the other way around, though…
Guest: Right, like, yeah, no.
Leyna: Does your wife ever I mean, does she have any fantasies about you and another guy?
Guest: If she's involved in Yeah.
Leyna: Okay, so you're in Reno, she decides, let's go to a strip club because we've got some time to kill, you're in there, she gets a lap dance.
Guest: She picked the girl that she wanted. She had the option of a $20 Lap dance right there in your chair, or $100 for a three song, dance in the back, she said, I'll just take the $20 one, about 30 seconds in she tells me, I want to go to the $100 room. Three of us get up and go back there, the girl starts to dance and is rubbing on Wendy and the stripper takes her top off. Wendy takes her top off. And I'm total shock, this is doing this in a strip club. They just rubbed on each other for a good 20 minutes, and she was hooked. He's like, we're gonna have to look into this club when we get home.
Guest: That's where it started. Of course we didn't just jump right into it at that point, either it was probably another year before we worked up the courage to, let's go and see what it, what it's like inside.
Leyna: Weren't you worried that you'd run into people you know or work for or, you know, your kids went to school together, whatever?
Guest: Yes, and we did.
Leyna: You did? And what was that like?
Guest: She saw him, he saw her, and they just went, opposite directions and nothing was ever said.
Leyna: You don't talk about fight club right?
Guest: No. She was a little worried at first, he's like, Oh my God, You know what if he talks, and I say what can he say you saw him there to the right you know exactly it's like a good point,
Leyna: And nothing ever came of it.
Guest: Nothing ever came of it.
Leyna: So you go into this club for the first time. Tell me about it
Guest: The first time there, they take you on a tour, people are super friendly, they're obviously they have a state of the art, dance floor, DJ booth, you know all the lights, a really nice bar area, they don't supply the alcohol you bring your own alcohol they supply the mixers and the bartender, and they'll make whatever you want with your stuff, but they take you on a tour they show you there's lockers, bring your own lock and, you know, lock up your clothes, your belongings, whatever, and then they take us into the play area. It's like an adult jungle gym…
Leyna: Do describe the scene to me.
Guest: First of all it's dark, you almost can't see anything.
Leyna: That's good.
Guest: Yeah, but there's, there's beds or platforms with mattresses on them, there's what they call their little cubby holes that you can climb in there's mattresses inside there, there's even a wall with a glory hole if you're familiar, there's a dungeon for those that like to get a little kinkier.
Guest: It's like walking through a maze actually and each room has like a different theme, there's rooms that are strictly for couples only there's rooms where everybody has to be naked, if you're just want to watch, you're in that area, you got a strip down too. The area is very clean, and that's what we liked was that, it's very clean, they supply all the towels you need, and they have volunteers that will come and just straighten up in between…
Leyna: so it's like a, like a sex spa.
Guest: Yeah, Exactly.
Leyna: You have to be a member or how does this work?
Guest: There's a membership there's like a yearly membership, and then there's a daily admittance fee. The membership for the year was like 80 or $100 for a couple
Leyna: oh ok, so that's nothing and then
Guest: if you're going on a Friday night, I think it's like 60 $80 A couple. Yeah, then you just bring your own your own alcohol or whatever.
Leyna: Do you have to be a couple to go to these places?
Guest: You can be a couple or a single female, for the most part they don't allow single men right they might have special parties on certain nights where single men will be invited, but they screen them to kind of keep out the creeps I guess
Leyna: Right, so only creeps, who have a girlfriend or a wife
Guest: Right, or someone posing as a girlfriend.
Leyna: Right, so I would imagine, if you are a single creep and you want to go to this place, you just have to bring someone with you. Now do they have to be male female couples?
Guest: I don't know.
Leyna: I would assume that you'd have to be male female couples to count as a couple in, because otherwise you can get two creeps
Guest: Right yeah that's true. I didn't think of it that way but yeah you're right, so…
Guest: Yeah, You gotta have a female to get in single females in the lifestyle are considered unicorns, everybody's heard about him but you just never really seen one
Leyna: Hard to come by
Guest: So if there is one that's interested in coming in. Yeah, come on. Yeah, I'm sure you'll add to the party,
Leyna: Right, so kind of like ladies night where so many bars will have ladies night no cover charge because they want to bring the ladies in
Leyna: Right to attract the guys. Did you sign up right away?
Guest: Yeah, you do everything right when you write when you get there at the front desk.
Leyna: It sounds very business like
Guest: It's a very well run business actually, they're able to pull up your name, they get a little barcode thing that they can scan has your account on it
Leyna: Kind of like the health club membership
Guest: Exactly it's the same one
Leyna: I never used. Okay so, take me to the first time you and your wife went into one of these clubs and actually participated.
Guest: Yeah, that was the first night that we went after sitting at the bar and having a couple of drinks to build up the courage, we decided, well, let's go on the in the play area and just walk around and see what's going on, couples or three people, four people, all enjoying themselves. It's weird at first because you're, you're not used to being okay with yeah I'm gonna stare at these people while they're fucking, you know it's
Leyna: You’re a newbie
Guest: It's a weird concept but after a few minutes you kind of get used to it and my wife seems to really enjoy watching people and after a while of just watching other people she says let's find a spot, we're not going to do anything with anybody else we want to get comfortable and first time we'll be by ourselves. I thought she'd shoot for one of these little cubby holes where you have some privacy. Now she found a platform, it's about six feet in the middle of a room. Leyna: Wow
Guest: where everybody that walks in has to see it. He's like, I want that spot
Leyna: She's an exhibitionist, did you know this about your wife?
Guest: I know she was okay, walking around the house naked
Leyna: Yeah, but that’s around the house
Guest: Right, but had never seen her like this.
Leyna: How long had you guys been married at this point?
Guest: Almost six years
Leyna: Wow. Okay. So, Wendy decides, hey, we're going to, like, you know spotlight on us.
Guest: Yeah, that was exactly how it went.
Leyna: And how did you feel about that?
Guest: I felt some pressure.
Leyna: I bet
Guest: There's some pressure to perform like that but I realized, nobody's looking at me. We stripped down and just, we just laid down and started kissing at first and try to get comfortable and just pretend that nobody's around, and then as things get going and progressing at one point we were doggystyle on this platform, and I'm not paying attention to anybody I'm just enjoying the enjoying
Leyna: Enjoying your own view.
Guest: Yeah, but then I look up and there's a good 20 people watching, and they're naked, you know it's a couples, and the guys are rubbing their wives starting to, you know maybe finger their wives and the guy in the girls are stroking or going down, giving them blow jobs right there while they're watching us, and I was thinking, Shit we must look pretty good.
Leyna: You’re rock stars.
Guest: exactly and I could hear (Wendy) say something I leaned forward, she goes Do you see them looking at us, and I said yeah she goes, I like that, you know, and so from there it was, I guess we're good to go. I wasn't quite sure how she was feeling at the time but obviously she enjoyed it
Leyna: and you had no like performance anxiety you had no problems.
Guest: Mine was the complete opposite. I went hours without stuff.
Leyna: Was it because you just couldn't get there because of all the pressure and all the kind of outside stuff that you didn't expect?
Guest: I can't really put a finger on why but
Leyna: Please don't.
Guest: But it was a good two, two and a half hours where it came to a point where I just need to lay down and take a nap. I was exhausted. I don't know to this day I don't know why but that happens quite a bit for me anyway we're in a play situation. And so later that night we went home, and we're talking about how it went, how we thought, whatever, and we ended up having sex at home and
Leyna: Right away
Guest: One and done. Yes. So, yeah I can't explain it and there were other times eventually where it would just not, it's not helping me get that working with me today, you know, but that happens
Leyna: I think that younger men hearing that may not want to put themselves in the position of not being able to perform. Do you find that as you're older that that stuff kind of doesn't really matter that much. It's not the end of the world you don't take it as personally?
Guest: Absolutely, you just kind of roll with the punches, you do see the younger guys, that they feel like they've got something to prove.
Guest: They'll either overdo it. Those are the ones that usually just end up too drunk in the, in the dance area and they can't, they don't even make it to the playroom. But it’s us older guys that are, you know, two drinks and let's go, you know, and there seems to be a lot of confidence that comes with age, you know you know what your body can do, you don't have to prove anything to anybody
Leyna: and if for that moment your body can't do what you want it to do it's still like no big deal. You don't
Leyna: It doesn’t get in your head
Guest: No, there were a few times where I really wanted it to work out and it just wasn't working out and I kind of got on myself like the hell's wrong with me. I even went so far as to get a prescription for pills, you know,
Leyna: And, let's face it, you know we're talking about guys, some of them in their 40s but 50s and beyond, there's stuff medically that you can do now to help you along with that because I would imagine that's just like a physiological thing that you're dealing with, whereas up here in your head, you're not effing like a 50 year old, you're, you're, you still have those fantasies and those desires that a 20 something year old man had so it's just your body, being able to take you through it. And now you There are pills and injections and who knows what else is out there but that's available for men, and might I add, is actually available for women which I didn't even know about until honestly the other day when I read an article on Suzanne Somers, talking about being sexy at 73 and how yeah women go through the changes with menopause and all the kind of unpleasant stuff that doesn't allow you to enjoy sex but now there's help for women as well. So I think we're moving in the right direction. Did you have preconceptions of what swinging was and compare that to what the reality is, yeah
Guest: I pictured it more of, maybe like an orgy type situation where there's just multiple people, just a pile of bodies just going at it well that does happen, that's not the norm, the norm with the lifestyle is usually two couples they will get together and either swap or you know maybe the four of them getting involved together.
Leyna: Do you make friends this way that then carry outside of the club where you know you don't have to pay the daily fee to to have sex with them.
Guest: Yes we have we actually made a couple of close friends this way, they've been to our kids performances and, and luckily the kids never say, so how do you know these people
Leyna: Is the friendship different, because you're actually having sex with these people, you've got friends who may come over for Thanksgiving dinner. And for dessert, you know, you all hop in the bed, But is it a different friendship is an effect like when you're not in bed?
Guest: When we're not in bed, it's, it's your normal friendship. It's like they know your secret. You know their secret and you know, they're not gonna let that out or whatever, where you guys can go out to dinner and have a good time and not do anything one time and then maybe the next time you go have drinks they come back to our house or whatever, we actually like that kind of friendship where you can do whatever you want.
Leyna: Sounds like there's safety, there’s security and knowing that they're going to protect
Guest: there’s safety there and you also get to know what they've done where they've been, you know, because on top of just finding people that you want to have sex with you want to meet people that are aware of safe sex, you know, these people are practicing safe sex, they're doing it the right way even if, maybe they're off with another couple sometime we know how they are, we know that they're taking care of themselves. So next time we're with them that's not really a worry for us.
Leyna: So you thought before that, swinging, or the lifestyle was just about one big orgy and you're finding out that it's really about relationships, friendships, in addition to the wild sex that you guys have
Leyna: Yes, that sounds pretty cool.
Guest: It is, it can be
Leyna: It can be so that brings me to every single man I've ever talked to has expressed outrage at the thought of seeing their woman having sex with anybody else. So when you're in the lifestyle, clearly a lot of people will watch, see know that their wife is having sex with someone else, how do you deal with it, were to ever jealous?
Guest: Yes there was. There was a time, you know, at the very beginning we progressed, slowly like I had mentioned earlier than one night, this girl approached Wendy and said Oh, would you like to play? and she's yeah but I've never done this before, you know, and so she had fun with her but Wendy wasn't comfortable with me touching this other girl, there's a rule at these clubs that you always ask before you touch, you know because No means no. Just to be safe. Now she did ask Wendy. Is there anything I can do with your husband and she said no. And I was like ah shit
Leyna: What am I here for?
Guest: Because I know we're progressing so I was okay with, and the show was fun. I'm not gonna lie, but then eventually it progressed into meeting another couple at the club, and they asked if we wanted to play and we said, yeah, so we found a spot in the playroom, this guy was, this was almost like an audition for him for porn. And honestly, he was trying to get in to the into the industry
Leyna: Oh my goodness
Guest: And he's probably in by now, because he knew what he was doing. But at no time at all. He's got Wendy naked and he's going down on her, which was fine. I've seen that before. I'm doing the same with his girlfriend. I look up 20 seconds later, he's having sex with my wife. And at first, you know, I was like, oh that looks kind of hot you know, but then I realized he got in so fast, I didn't see him put a condom on
Leyna: Oh so I saw you that you started worried about that
Guest: That fucked with my head really bad to where I was distracted. I wasn't even paying attention to this poor girl over here and she knew that I was having an issue and she just leaned up she goes I saw him, put a condom on it's okay, you know,
Leyna: Oh, and so without you having to say anything she knew what your concern was
Guest: Because I'm watching trying to
Leyna: trying to see if there's something on
Guest: To see if there's a Yeah, and it's dark, I can't see.
Guest: And so, no, but she said no I saw him put a condom on and I was like okay, but it was, I was done at that point I wasn't going to perform.
Leyna: You were too far from it then.
Leyna: But was that your only concern was there any jealousy because I mean this is the first time you're watching someone else have sex with your wife,
Guest: There’s a, there's a twinge of jealousy, and I think the, the kind of thing was maybe just a distraction for me or a ploy to try to tell myself I'm not jealous, but no I was feeling it. It got hard to watch, and I wasn't comfortable with it, this guy was just going to pound town he and I kind of didn't want to interrupt her because she was enjoying it. So I did what you're not supposed to do and I just sat there and let her do what she was doing were kind of the rule is if one person's not happy, you tell the other person and that ends it.
Leyna: You were so polite. Right?
Guest: Yeah I didn't want to
Leyna: You didn't want to be the guy who says wait a second stop
Guest: I didn’t want to be the cock block.
And so I let her do her thing
and it got to a point where he pulled out, I saw the condom rips it off and in one fell swoop puts another one on grabs his girlfriend and he starts going, and then a couple minutes later, rips that one off puts another one on it goes back to it
Leyna: To your wife?
Guest: And at this point I was like, I'm done. She saw me and she's like, are you okay I said no. And she stopped him right there and got our clothes and we walked off and before we even gotten off the platform he had found another girl and was going to town, you know this guy was. It was impressive when I look back now, I was impressed but
Leyna: How old was he about? Did he seemed like a young…
Guest: He was good 10 years younger than we were. Yeah
Leyna: What is the average age group in there anyway?
Guest: I would say mid 40s mid to upper 40s I would guess would be the average from time to time you'll, you'll see a couple of 20 Somethings, I think for the most part they're probably late 30s to early 50s, but we literally talked for two hours after that when we got home. By the end of our conversation we had it all sorted out. We had sex and that was that
Leyna: Put a bow on it huh?
Guest: Yeah, and so we had taken a little break from that for a while, and then we met another couple that we really liked. And so, we gave it another shot.
Leyna: So, the first time, your wife saw you sleeping with another woman. Did she have a problem with it?
Guest: No, she told me she thought it was hot that she liked to watch it and I'm thankful
Leyna: Lucky you right? It sounds like it's been really good for you guys. How has this affected your relationship?
Guest: It has been great. It teaches you communication and trust, she would tell you before we got involved it, I was a little bit jealous, she would come home talking stories about what something that happened at work, and she would name a certain guys name and she catch me biting my lip. So she knew, Okay. Stop talking and so that was her big concern, but when you're in this lifestyle, in order for it to work, you have to be completely open, you have to be able to tell her I find this girl attractive, you know, to get her to open up to me and say it's okay if you think this guy's hot or whatever I, you could tell me it doesn't, it doesn't bother me.
Leyna: Have you ever been in a situation where she wants to have sex with someone, you don't want to have sex with?
Guest: No, I don't think it has
Leyna: Okay, let me ask another way. Have you ever been in a situation where she doesn't want to have sex with someone you want to have sex with?
Guest: Yes, and we just won't do it, it's it's an all or nothing. There, now there's situations where she can give me what she calls a hall pass. And that's something that comes up in the lifestyle and I think you know what it is
Leyna: You get to go off on your own
Guest: With people that we both know, you know, or people that we've been with before, one instance, this couple that we were really close with wanted us to come have a date. But Wendy had to go out of state for business. She said, Well, I can't go but I'll send, Mike, you know, and so I was like, alright
Leyna: Yeah. Again, lucky you.
Guest: Yeah, and I had a great time, you know, but these were people, we don't have vacation to Costa Rica with these people so they weren't strangers, and there was no pressure.
Leyna: Do you ever give your wife a hall pass.
Guest: I offered up if there's something that she's really interested but it would have, it would have to be somebody that I've, I've met, and then
Leyna: No no no no, the question was, have you ever given your wife a hall pass?
Guest: Yes yes
Leyna: And what's the situation there?
Guest: But she hasn't taken me up on it.
Leyna: Oh, you're saying that you've given her permission she's never Guest: I’ve offered her a hall pass and she just hasn't cashed it in.
Leyna: What kind of advice would you give to someone who's kind of just thinking about this, you know,
Guest: Do your research, read everything that you can about it, especially when it comes to relationships, you know the trust the, the jealousy, because that's all gonna factor in at some point, we figured out, and also we've read the same thing that this lifestyle will destroy a marriage that's not firm it's not a strong relationship but it will enhance an already strong relationship.
Leyna: If you're having problems in your marriage and you think, introducing this kind of lifestyle is going to make things better
Guest: It’s going to end it
Leyna: Faster, than it…
Guest: Yeah, yeah that that'll kill it
Leyna: Would you guess that there have been good relationships that were also ruined by this lifestyle?
Guest: Well then you'd have to question how good was the relationship just going from what I know I would think there had to have been some issues, I think at that point in a in a relationship if this caused a problem.
Leyna: Well, so let me ask you this, because you guys are in the lifestyle you both approve of it, its major relationship betters made your marriage better. Is it really fair to say that a couple who can't do this. Something's wrong with their relationship?
Guest: No, no, because on top of having a strong relationship, sex has to be kind of important to your relationship as well there's people that have nice strong relationships but sex just isn't that important to them.
Leyna: Well, or whether it's important but it's only sex with your spouse, no one else right, so I guess everyone's
Guest: Yeah you'll know if, this works for you or not, you know, and if you're one of those people, they're like, Yeah, sex, you know, once a month in the bedroom that the lights off. Maybe this isn't for you. I like to tell people, you know this is kind of recreation for us, we know our marriage is strong, we're not worried about that, but it's the social aspect and kind of recreation you know some people like to bowl. You know I, I'd rather fuck you know
Leyna: Much better than bridge.
Leyna: Now that you've been in the lifestyle knowing you like it as much as you do, let's say, if your marriage doesn't last. Could you see yourself being with someone who is against it or who would not participate.
Guest: Oh that's a good one.
Leyna: Now that you've had a taste of this lifestyle, could you be with someone who wouldn't allow it?
Guest: They’d have to be awfully special I don't know. That's a good question. I think I would really hope I guess that this next person was as into it as, as I am
Leyna: Have you not for one second ever had a worry or concern that what if you guys end up meeting a great couple and your wife falls in love with the guy?
Guest: No, no, that well I mean, it hasn't happened but I can't say it could never happen. But has it entered your mind. Honestly, no. No, we did meet a single male that we brought in, and I thought they were getting a little bit close a lot more kissing and to me kissing is a little Leyna: More intimate
Guest: More intimate
Leyna: Than sex yeah
Guest: And they were doing an awful lot of it and I just told her, Hey, let's watch…
Leyna: Remember pretty woman when she wouldn't kiss the guy?
Guest: Right, but other than that, nothing.
Leyna: Do you guys have rules?
Guest: The rules change as you get more comfortable, but it's the same. If one of us, isn't interested, then the answer's no, you need to make sure it's okay with the other person before you take the next step, we were okay with full swap
Leyna: Full swap meaning you with the other wife and your wife with. Guest: Yeah, we're okay with that, but it had to be same
Leyna: Same room
Guest: But originally it was no intercourse, which was considered soft swap, so she could go down on a guy he could go down on her but just no
Leyna: No intercourse
Leyna: That’s called soft swap
Guest: Soft swap
Leyna: What do they call it when it's okay for you to go with the other girl and have sex, but it's not okay for your wife to have sex with someone else. So do people have those kind of rules where it's kind of limiting for one partner?
Guest: There’s couples that do and they're usually the ones that don't last.
Guest: Yeah, because there's going to be jealousy.
Leyna: Could you or would you tell your kids that you guys live this lifestyle. Now your kids are adults now?
Guest: I wouldn't want them to find out, I don't know if I would, if they did find out, I guess we jump off that bridge when we got to it.
Leyna: Do your non swinging friends know?
Guest: I have a couple friends that know, they're the type of people I could tell them anything, you know, where I hid the body or whatever, and they wouldn't say anything. And Wendy does too. She's got one close friend that knows.
Leyna: Is there a reason why you haven't told her other friends?
Guest: Yeah, I don't think they'd approve it's not as far as I know, because…
Leyna: You never know
Guest: You never know what people are doing behind closed doors, Leyna: Right.
Leyna: Okay, so that's on the personal level, clearly on the professional level, you have to kinda even keep your, your secret even more secret right?
Leyna: Okay, let's, let's share some some stories I mean, it all sounds you know good and great and everything. Surely you've had to have some bad experiences.
Guest: I’ve got one in particular that just cracks me up every time I think about it, we met a couple went out for drinks one time and we hit it off, everything was going really well. So we decided to make a day in the future. We each get a hotel room, and have some drinks in the lobby. Eventually we have them over to our room. The husband was a high powered attorney. Yeah, he had this alpha male persona, he sends me an email, breaking down what we're going to do and in what order
Leyna: For your play date
Guest: For a play date.
Leyna: By the way, I can never use that word in the same way I've always used it now. Yeah.
Guest: Yeah, he kinda was barking out orders, number one the girls will do a lap dance for the guys, and then they will switch partners and do the lap dance for the other husband. And then the girls would get on the bed and have some fun to themselves while the men strip down to their, boxers, and we'll watch
Guest: Yeah, I mean, down to the second almost, they were doing it they were falling along. Then he says the guys will go down on the other the other female, and then they'll change to their wife, and then they'll separate and they'll have sex with their own spouse, Wendy and I are just kind of laughing to ourselves like what the hell's going on? But we play along. So, we're doing our thing on one side of the room and they're on the bed doing their thing, he had her bent over the bed standing behind her going doggy style, and he announces, I'm gonna cum I’m gonna cum…
Leyna: He announces that too?
Guest: So. Exactly. So he pulls out and rips his condom off and he's gonna He's gonna shoot on her back, but uh, he had more pressure in the pipes than he thought he did, he shot over her head onto the floor right onto his own pants on the floor, but it was like. Something About Mary where you know the scene in the bathroom and he can't find it, he doesn't know
Leyna: Where it ended up?
Guest: He’s wanting to clean it up but he can't find it, when he and I are just sitting back just try not to laugh out loud, which we didn’t, we ended up losing it but, so he's getting dressed, and he notices, it's right on the crotch of his jeans.
Leyna: Oh my goodness
Guest: And by this time we're ready for them to leave. This is a one and done we're never gonna see them again after this. They're at the door, saying their goodbyes. He opens the door and he looks down and he's like, I can't believe I have cum all over my pants. Behind him in the hallway there's three old ladies like just like Golden Girls. They just came out of their room.
Leyna: Oh my gosh
Guest: They hear that.
Guest: And he turns around and it all like, all three of them their eyes go down to his crotch. He just says, Hello ladies! And they all walked out the hallway together and that was the last we ever saw of them.
Leyna: That’s funny, but that's, I mean that's not awful. Have you ever had any experiences where it's like, Oh, God will never do that again. Guest: Well, I mean
Leyna: or unpleasant experience
Guest: That was, was funny, but there was a tinge of unpleasancy because she wasn't that clean she wasn't fresh.
Guest: and so we both noticed that right away and, like, they didn't even take the time to freshen up for us where we came, we got in our room showered up, we're ready to go and then, yeah, overall, that was a bad experience
Leyna: But all in all it doesn't sound like you've ever had any other like no real creep-a-zoids were right in the middle of bed, you're like, I’m not gonna do this
Guest: At the club from time to time, you'll see a kind of an old creepy guy maybe he came in with his wife, or it might have been just the lady to help him get in the door
Guest Like what I said when we're on that platform, there's some stairs next to it from time to time there'll be a guy that just sits down on the stairs and just starts jacking off watching, and it's creepy as hell.
Leyna: So you find that creepy, and yet there is something different about all those other people who are also watching and doing who knows what.
Guest: Right but it’s the way that they look and you would know it of you saw it
Leyna: Oh I think I do
Guest: It’s somebody that you might see parked on the side of the road, That’s the vibe that they’re giving off that they were just creepy.
Leyna: Would you say that when you are in this lifestyle, you have to go a lot on intuition. If something feels wrong or if it feels bad, to stop it and not push through or
Guest: Yeah, that happens, we're actually not like super high mileage, we haven't been around that much we're very selective with who we decide on. So, for the most part we've had positive experiences, there's some people that will will meet on a website, because there's a dating website for this, or several of them, and we'll meet them for drinks, and that's usually where we get the bad vibe, before we've actually done anything. We'll go have drinks or dinner or whatever. And usually, feeling at that point
Leyna How often do you guys go to the club now?
Guest: It’s probably been two years since we went, we do have a couple of friends from time to time when the opportunity comes up we’ll do it
Leyna: Now Mike and I had talked off camera, you know, just to get comfortable and I had asked him, Have you ever done anything in the lifestyle that you didn't plan on doing wasn't in your playbook, you know, something that you didn't even fantasize about, and he told me about bringing a single guy into their bedroom while on vacation. Long story short, after a few drinks they end up in the room you're in the bed, you're having sex. And then what happened
Guest: The guy asked us. Have we ever done a DVP
Guest: Double vaginal penetration, we hadn't so he had to coach us along. Let me get on my back and Wendy ride me. She leans forward, he comes from the bank and slides in, and the look on Wendy space was incredible. She was loving it.
Guest: It was, it was something else
Leyna: How long have you been in this lifestyle and do you see yourself doing it until you can't anymore?
Guest: We’ve been in it, almost 10 years. I'm comfortable if we want to keep doing this, it all depends on
Leyna: Your Wife
Guest: Yeah if she's if she's saying I'm done, then we're probably done, you know, the occasional Hall Pass might come up or something but
Leyna: So your spouse really has to come first in all of this.
Guest: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, that is where your relationship is that's the that's the most important that's everything. So yeah, it has to be a team decision.
Leyna: There will be some people who listen to this. And just think, oh my God, where is she finding these people. Right. And yet, there are actually so many people out there who are living this alternative lifestyle. Can you give me an idea what kind of people we're talking about you've met a lot of people now through your 10 years of this
Guest: Every walk of life, you have no idea. There’s heavy set people, skinny people, there's professionals, there's blue collar workers, fast food workers, there's a lot of people in the in the entertainment industry, a lot, lot in law enforcement
Guest: Yeah Firefighting and you just never know. You know, you may know your neighbors might have known for 10 years and find out, they like to hit the club every once in a while, you know, there's just no way of telling. Well, there's some people that they just scream lifestyle. Those are the ones that live it 24/7
Leyna: Really. Okay, wait a second let's paint this picture for the person who screams I live that lifestyle, what are we talking about?
Guest: Fake tans, french tip nails.
Leyna: Hey, wait a second.
Guest: It’s just that it's just something that they put off it's, it's a feeling that
Leyna: So it's vibe.
Guest: Yeah, and they'll make innuendos. After innuendo after it's like non stop, you start picking up, we're at the point now where if we're at the mall or something. One of us will tap the other one. What do you think lifestyle. Yep. Now there's a thing going on where you're supposed to wear a black ring, I think it's on your opposite hand from your wedding ring. If you wear a black ring that's kind of a signal for our swingers.
Leyna: So it's the ring finger on your right hand?
Guest: I think so I know it's a black ring, I'm not sure where you're supposed to wear it. Also, and I don't have an explanation for this but pineapples are a symbol for the lifestyle, let's say you're on vacation somewhere
Leyna: You post a picture of yourself and you put a pineapple on it…
Guest: People will put a picture of a pineapple on their door or they'll have an actual pineapple sitting next to their door.
Leyna: Oh my god!
Guest: Yeah, I've seen it maybe once or twice, but I just learned recently what that was, I have no idea what the hell a pineapple has to do with it
Leyna: Very interesting
Guest: Google that and see what you come up with
Leyna: Any last words about living the lifestyle?
Guest: If you have a healthy marriage, and an active sex life, maybe it's for you. If you find yourself, arguing a lot or not all that interested in sex or trust issues. Just maybe stick to bowling.
Leyna: And that, ladies and gentlemen is the first episode of consenting adults thanks for listening. I'm your host Leyna Nguyen, find us on social media. We're on Twitter at consentadults, and also on Instagram consenting, underscore, adults, underscore show. Now if you thought this episode was interesting, wait until you hear the next one.
Guest: Have you ever kissed like more than one person like the three people kissing at the same time. No, no. Boy your fucking mind. Just blow your mind.
Leyna: You’ve seen him on popular TV shows like homeland, Bosch and the shield, but you've never seen him quite like this. That's next time on Consenting Adults.
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